Update me on VSU (2 Viewers)

[walrusbear]

It is not the responsibility of the student body to fund cultural institutions compulsorarily - what a ridiculous assumption to make. Sport receives ample funding from other sources and if you wish to participate in this mindless "institution" then you should pay for it, if other's don't then they shouldn't have to. It is as simple as that. Furthermore, if you really are as obsessive about sport as you appear on this forum, then perhaps you should consider the various local clubs which offer sport as apart of their services; that way you wouldn't have to bother the rest of the student body who are studying hard.

why is it ridiculous?
i'm also highly sick of seeing people say 'it's as simple as that'. actually it is far from that simple. do you have any proof that user pay is a wise approach to education?

i don't play sport at all
in fact the only club i'm in is filmsoc, and i've only attended one screening this year
i do buy food/drink etc on campus

how does sport intrude on your studying btw?

 

[erawamai]

Sport is completely different. It is unrelated to academic learning and is simply like a hobby or some such ancillary but redundant activity wholly unconnected to study.I like you walrusbear but I fervently disagree with you here. A university is an institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities. How is sport integral to a university?

Sport is another extra curricular activity that can be important to the development of intellect as well as a range of other worthy character enhancing traits. The ability to apply your mind to various physical pursuits can be just as stimulating as academic exertion.

 

[j_hakka_v2]

I'm not saying that we should have USU or VSU, all i'm saying is that differentiating between "essential services" and sport is questionable as it can be argued that sport is an essential service or that food isn't an essential service

Well again you deserve to be called delusional. How can you possibly argue that food is not an essential service? And even if you could derive some obscenely delusional argument concerning its non-necessity, you could hardly contend that sport is just as necessary as food.

 

[withoutaface]

Food, photocopying, clubs and societies are, imo, more necessary than sports because they are generally inclusive of more people, whereas sports will tend to exclude those who lack any natural talent. They are, however, still not for everyone and as such the fees should be voluntary.

 

[Rafy]

Sport is another extra curricular activity that can be important to the development of intellect as well as a range of other worthy character enchancing traits.

That may be true, but why should the ENTIRE student body have to pay for the provision of sporting services even if they do not utilise them? Obviously i am advocating the user pays principle.

 

[j_hakka_v2]

Sport is another extra curricular activity that can be important to the development of intellect as well as a range of other worthy character enhancing traits. The ability to apply your mind to various physical pursuits can be just as stimulating as academic exertion.

This is just blather to disguise the poor reasons behind Australia's obsession with sport.

 

[withoutaface]

Sport is another extra curricular activity that can be important to the development of intellect as well as a range of other worthy character enhancing traits. The ability to apply your mind to various physical pursuits can be just as stimulating as academic exertion.

If you want to enhance your character and intellect that's fine, but you don't need to be sponging off those who don't use it.

 

[erawamai]

That may be true, but why should the ENTIRE student body have to pay for the provision of sporting services even if they do not utilise them? Obviously i am advocating the user pays principle.

Why should I pay for anything that does not benefit me or that I do not utilise?

 

[walrusbear]

Food, photocopying, clubs and societies are, imo, more necessary than sports because they are generally inclusive of more people, whereas sports will tend to exclude those who lack any natural talent. They are, however, still not for everyone and as such the fees should be voluntary.

i'm not so sure uni sport is excluding. i'm pretty sure usyd offers sport to people of all levels. amateur, social or pro.

however the diversity and quality of sporting opportunity can only be reduced under a user pay system.

 

[erawamai]

If you want to enhance your character and intellect that's fine, but you don't need to be sponging off those who don't use it.

The same argument can be made over a number of other services. Everyone here is just showing their bias by rooting for what they think is more important than the other.

You talk of pens and photocopying. Others talk of sport. Others talk of social clubs. Etc

Same difference. Just everyone acting in their self interest attempting to say that their self interest happens to collelate best to the interest of everyone.

 

[withoutaface]

The same argument can be made over a number of other services. Everyone here is just showing their bias by rooting for what they think is more important than the other.

You talk of pens and photocopying. Others talk of sport. Others talk of social clubs. Etc

Same difference. Just everyone acting in their self interest attempting to say that their self interest happens to collelate best to the interest of everyone.

Of course it can be, which is why all services should get their funds through voluntary means.

I think you'll find the majority of the major players in this thread are not necessarily acting in their own self interest, rather trying to implement the system that they believe is morally right.

 

[j_hakka_v2]

i'm not so sure uni sport is excluding. i'm pretty sure usyd offers sport to people of all levels. amateur, social or pro.

however the diversity and quality of sporting opportunity can only be reduced under a user pay system.

Of course, because they wouldn't be sucking the fat from their $160 million budget. I mean, this is just the most obscene thing - students are being robbed nearly $200 million per annum to subsidise the affairs of union administrators, political protests and needless sporting institutions. I commend Brendan Nelson for putting an end to this ghastly beast.

 

[Sarah]

Yep, sorry you do.

Thanks for your life story. Nevertheless, sport should never be made something that overrides the purpose of a university as an academic institution. If sport was so brilliant at developing all these personal skills then it would have more than the paltry 25% participation rate at Sydney University. Clearly, the majority see sport as either useless or redundant in their lives, and thus should not have to pay for it. This is a democracy after all.

Alright, i don't know why you'd think it's my life story but if it helps

It's not only sport that develops these skills. Other clubs do as well. And these other clubs would be considered as non-essential services. Perhaps ppl are finding other ways to do develop skills in non-sporting clubs?

How about finding some stats which show that there are students which belong to no student societies, or who do not benefit from clubs and societies e.g going to an event? Maybe then I can be persuaded that uni is only there for you to get a degree and get out. The fact that clubs and societies exist in addition to essential services suggests that maybe they do serve another purpose e.g contributing to a sense of community.

I agree that uni is a learning institution (don't even bother criticising this point as it's a point you've already made) but there are other aspects to uni which have been historically associated with it. Like i said before, all i'm doing is questioning what is essential and non-essential, why sport is considered non-essential and photocopying is considered essential

 

[Generator]

Same difference. Just everyone acting in their self interest attempting to say that their self interest happens to collelate best to the interest of everyone.

No. Much like others, I make minimal use of the facilities on offer (a muslei bar each day, really), yet I'm still in support of USU, or a compromise that is in some way effective. Don't just assume that it's a case of blatant self-interest on the part of all involved, because that cheapens the debate.

 

[walrusbear]

Of course it can be, which is why all services should get their funds through voluntary means.

which is not really viable since they don't have the collective money to run effectively

not to mention coming at the expense of universal advocacy

 

[erawamai]

Of course it can be, which is why all services should get their funds through voluntary means.

I think you need to read up on economic theory. Complete service user pays is a fallacy. If all services were user pays there would be no social cohesion in society as those services that are not amendable to the market would not stop existing.

You are essentially arguing fundementalist freemarketism in its most parsimonious form. It probably portrays the fact that you know very little about what you are talking about. Or at least very little about economic theory.

 

[Sarah]

Well again you deserve to be called delusional. How can you possibly argue that food is not an essential service? And even if you could derive some obscenely delusional argument concerning its non-necessity, you could hardly contend that sport is just as necessary as food.

How? Well because there are sources outside the uni where you can obtain them from.

For example, assuming you're still at school at the moment, do you always bring your lunch with you or buy it from school everyday?

And yet again, i will repeat that i'm questioning what's considered essential and non-essential. Maybe i should refine down further what i'm saying and ask what criteria should there be to distinguish the 2 catergories

 

[walrusbear]

Of course, because they wouldn't be sucking the fat from their $160 million budget. I mean, this is just the most obscene thing - students are being robbed nearly $200 million per annum to subsidise the affairs of union administrators, political protests and needless sporting institutions. I commend Brendan Nelson for putting an end to this ghastly beast.

yeah, what a clever solution Nelson put forward.

if you're going to reduce this argument to numbers then don't bother. everyone on this board thinks the student fees are very high and the union should be run more efficiently.

that said, your figures only really disguise your ideological contempt for idea of collectivism, i'd say. unions are hardly the only organisation with highly questionable fund distribution.

 

[j_hakka_v2]

I agree that uni is a learning institution (don't even bother criticising this point as it's a point you've already made) but there are other aspects to uni which have been historically associated with it. Like i said before, all i'm doing is questioning what is essential and non-essential, why sport is considered non-essential and photocopying is considered essential

Again, if the link isn't clear then you are both delusional and now, rather imbecillic. Photocopying is obviously more essential to the academic progression of students than exclusive sports teams. Further, just because something has been historically linked to a university does not mean that current students should have to continue to subsidise it for sentimental value. How absurd.

 

[withoutaface]

I think you need to read up on economic theory. Complete service user pays is a fallacy. If all services were user pays there would be no social cohesion in society as those services that are not amendable to the market would not stop existing.

You are essentially arguing fundementalist freemarketism in its most parsimonious form. It probably portrays the fact that you know very little about what you are talking about. Or at least very little about economic theory.

The most major source of Union-subsidised social cohesions would be clubs and societies, and these take up less than 3% of the Union's overall budget, meaning that they, and the social cohesion they provide, would survive under a user pays system.

Note also that the implementation of a verbose vocabulary is only impressive when you spell the words correctly.