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i guess its nearly official, we are all screwed (1 Viewer)

Ziff

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propagandhi said:
howabout nazi germany? they were a right wing super power

and wouldnt it be fairly obvious from all of my screaming that i am a pacifist? i do not stand happily by while france and india have nukes, in fact i think the india pakistan situation is something incredibly volatile that should warrant even some attention by the western media.

i dunno, i think it is pointless trying to justify my political emotion to alot of you as all i seem to get is comments about my language. yeah, you have a point, it was a very sprawling emotional and badly spelt effort that i should have bothered to spell check, but i did it late, depressed and drunk, more to the point it was a rant.

rants dont have to be backed up by footnotes however if you wanna mince political with me be my guest. it was not written to become a definite article of proof of the apocalypse. i see your point, but then you must understand this wasnt written to be presented in court. it is emotional, yes, the death of human being is emotional. it is when we removed emotion from politics that death became numbers on paper and we are bought to the current day.

i may be a leftwing fuckup or whatever, i'll be the first to admit it, you dont have to be as passionate loud and longwinded as i was, but in the end, you must know that killing civillians is wrong. by killing civillians you only make more terrorists and more civillians die. no life is worth any price... NOT ANY PRICE!!

ive said my piece, and i am now sober. you want to debate, fine i'll get into that

hehe...
a night in bed with mike moore?? well as tempting as that is.... im trying to give it up.... give me Kelley from ThoughRiot instead.
The reason your language and facts are attacked is because you do not have a coherent argument.

Is it this?
1. Bush has been reelected.
2. This means it's the death of human beings.
3. Evangelical Christians are going to launch nuclear weapons.
4. Democracy sucks because Bush has been reelected.
5. I'm going to throw in poorly researched historical facts that don't relate to the present.
6. Now I'm going to talk about oil because it's a good idea.
Because that doesn't flow.

I mean most rants e.g. an Op-Ed column usually have facts and a clear logical argument. You can be of whatever political persuasion, I don't care, but so blatantly generalising (End of humanity because people voted Bush), making poor categorisations (the religious and Republican BS), appealing to emotions (at least that of equally ignorant extremists), making blatant causal fallacies - how will Bush's reelection lead to the appocalypse?!, outright non-sequiturs and fallacies of explaination don't help your case.

Like I said, I don't care about your persuasion, but what pisses me off is that when people shoot off their mouths like this and give their cause or "left/right wing" whatever a bad reputation.
 

Ziff

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Clearly, the re-election of Bush has been hyperbolised to an excessive extent with people believing for some reason it's the end of the world. It's not. He's just another president. It has nothing to do with the apocalypse. Think - International Relations (incl. the reconstruction of Iraq) and Trade (especially free-trade!). These are overwhelmingly good things for humanity.

Killing of civilians? You do of course realise that under the sanctions, under the UN Food for Oil Programme and under Saddam's regime many more died, needlessly, than they have. I haven't seen any concrete figures on deaths caused by Allied forces on civilian populations - real civilians.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Ok... i haven't bothered reading all posts... .but wtf is the problem with u guys?
The american people democratically elected their leader, don't have a go at 'evangelicals' because their views should be as respected as yours.

How many of you believe fahrenheit 9/11 is a good source of information that brings up a lot of facts?

Edit: Just a bit of a note... every generation seems to believe they're witnessing the breakdown of society, the end of the world.
 
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Generator

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Free trade... Preferential trade, I think. I am not saying that the idea is bad, just that the term is far from being as clear as it should (a point that has been made many, many times).
 

propagandhi

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im not having a go an evangelists per se... i am having a go at the interpretation of religion that used by the republicans to justify blind, mass airstrikes and smart bombs that hit hospitals.

the fact that in a democracy a president adopts a religious view that automatically makes him believe he is morally superior to the remaining 98% of his population is my biggest problem. i mean, how can he deal with the world when he thinks everyone is a pagan and he believes they must be converted or destroyed... oh, he doesnt. thats right!

if i were christian id feel really patronised about the whole 'god chose me to do this' deal...

farenheit 9 11 could have been so much more than it was, i mean he touched on issues but it came down to a little bit of cheap bush bashing, which is fun for a laugh, but not too much in terms of revolutionary discoveries. I knew alot of what i saw before i saw it, but for people without an active interest in politics...hmm

i therefore declare it a heavily watered down chomsky for network television to be played to the everyman... not much better than ten news i guess.
 

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Xayma said:
Of course isnt American policy to not strike first with nuclear weapons?

Yes but I'm sure official American policy is not to shoot down a commercial airliner without the proper authorisation, but Dick Cheney tried that. The fact is, that Bush wanted to get Saddam, maybe to get revenge for his dad, maybe because he wants to start a war, or maybe because he's a lackey for Corporate America, and while Saddam did not threaten American citiziens, or American military, what he did threaten is American corporate interests. Oil. How can anyone in their right mind beleive that that war is justified. Every time i hear the phrase "War on Terror" i laugh. But it also scares me, that this phrase has entered our language so quickly, even though the very concept is absurd. How many attacks have there been on American soil in the last 5 years? 1. This is not an outright threat to the lives of millions.....it's engineered by the White House to keep people in fear. 80% of people who decided their vote primarily on National Security voted for Bush. This is not because he is some great and strong leader with a solid plan to defeat terrorism. It's because he pretends to be. For christs sake, John Kerry was shot THREE times in Vietnam. Meanwhile Bush was dodging National Guard duty.......

Think about how much the world has changed in the last 4 years. Lets hope it doesnt change that much again in the next 4
 

propagandhi

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Cactus said:
Think about how much the world has changed in the last 4 years. Lets hope it doesnt change that much again in the next 4
good call. that is exactly what i am worried about.

it may not be their public policy because they would never get elected on a promise of nuclear war, but there is significant precedent to suggest they would.

even if they dont use nuclear weapons initally, if bush and co get involved in a nasty shitfight with north korea for arguments sake (which they wont because america holds very little corporate influence in north korea), the koreans could launch first

then we launch

pakistan bombs india
israel bombs palestine

....

nuclear weapons should be rotting in pieces after hiroshima
 

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try saying or posting something like that in saddam's iraq.

i don't think you'd be alive any more.

i don't think it's very fair of you to label western democracy and capitalism as fascism.

unless you've lived under it, unless you've lived under martial law, unless you've lived with the threat of being shot everytime you dissed the government, unless you've lived under a president whose embezzled millions of dollars out of your coutnry, unless you've lived under a leader whose attempted to obliterate the educated class, unless you've lived under a regime that endorses children to hand their parents over to the authorities to be killed for going against the govt. unless you've lived in constant fear don't make any assumptions on "fascism".

i'm not necessarily supporting bush but i do support democracy.

and you better be fucking thankful you're living in twenty-first century australia.
 
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propagandhi

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thats the funny part
it is becoming alot that way in america these days...

take something as ridiculous as this... the patriot act implemented on an animal rights activist...

feldmann
 

propagandhi

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sure am glad i am living in australia and not america
im concerned because we seem to be attempting to live just like america junior these days

even our liberal party wont allow gay people to get married

yea, real liberal

or listen to us when 70% say no to war

yea, real democratic
 

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Lorie said:
France and Russia, doesn't sound much like a majority does it. unless it is taken to the courts in Florida.
Yeah but they can stop any UN action, meaning that Iraq would never have UN support without their approval.

Propagandhi:
Well they were elected we can't go to a referendum each time an issue arises. And they were reelected again.
 

danie

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propagandhi said:
thats the funny part
it is becoming alot that way in america these days...

take something as ridiculous as this... the patriot act implemented on an animal rights activist...

feldmann
that suports what we're both saying.

essentially though like john feldmann said:

"I have the right as an American to speak up against America. I am a true patriot. I am a true American. I will always speak up for the innocent, oppressed, the voiceless."

i'm just saying now that you've sobered up a bit and so have i, that i don't necessarily agree with what our governments are doing as far as im concerned howard's bush's lackey, but we have fundamental rights that so many people have not been given.

and i can't sit here letting idealists (i'm one too) tell me how to live and criticizing the system we live in, while it might not be the most fair but it's a hellava lot better than what some people have or are living under.

p.s. and when i'm saying that be thankful you'rte living in australia i meant be thankful you didn't live under saddam's regime where a post asvindictive as that or sladering of the government would get you done over.
 
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Ziff

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Cactus said:
Yes but I'm sure official American policy is not to shoot down a commercial airliner without the proper authorisation, but Dick Cheney tried that. The fact is, that Bush wanted to get Saddam, maybe to get revenge for his dad, maybe because he wants to start a war, or maybe because he's a lackey for Corporate America, and while Saddam did not threaten American citiziens, or American military, what he did threaten is American corporate interests. Oil. How can anyone in their right mind beleive that that war is justified. Every time i hear the phrase "War on Terror" i laugh. But it also scares me, that this phrase has entered our language so quickly, even though the very concept is absurd. How many attacks have there been on American soil in the last 5 years? 1. This is not an outright threat to the lives of millions.....it's engineered by the White House to keep people in fear. 80% of people who decided their vote primarily on National Security voted for Bush. This is not because he is some great and strong leader with a solid plan to defeat terrorism. It's because he pretends to be. For christs sake, John Kerry was shot THREE times in Vietnam. Meanwhile Bush was dodging National Guard duty.......

Think about how much the world has changed in the last 4 years. Lets hope it doesnt change that much again in the next 4
These are assertions, they are not facts as you make them out to be. You still haven't justified why the invasion of Iraq and the War on Terror are bad things. You have said "what" you haven't said "why". This is the important one. I don't see a correlation between being a head of Government directing a war and being part of the infantry either. If you haven't noticed, these positions are very dissimilar.

Idiot said:
even if they dont use nuclear weapons initally, if bush and co get involved in a nasty shitfight with north korea for arguments sake (which they wont because america holds very little corporate influence in north korea), the koreans could launch first
Where are you pulling this nuclear weapons BS from?! If you haven't noticed, nuclear weapons are not a viable alternative. There's indication that NK has the capabilities to make nuclear weapons but they cannot launch them or use them. Precdent to use nuclear weapons?! IT'S ONLY HAPPENED TWICE AND IT WAS DONE TO END A WAR WHERE INVASION WOULD HAVE KILLED 1M+ PEOPLE AND ALSO TO DETER THE RUSSIANS. There is no precedent. You really need to read up on your history, and not from the Propaganda Extremeist Bible you're preaching from.

then we launch
Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons.
 

Senator04

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and i can't sit here letting idealists (i'm one too) tell me how to live and criticizing the system we live in, while it might not be the most fair but it's a hellava lot better than what some people have or are living under.
True, but thats a bit of a defeatist arguement. Just because we live in better conditions than others does not mean we should take that system for granted and let less than satisfactory leaders run our countries, we must always try to make our system better not allow it to decline, as we are now. The price of what we have is eternal vigalence in keeping it at this level or as i said making it better.

There's my idealism for the day.
 

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Senator04 said:
True, but thats a bit of a defeatist arguement. Just because we live in better conditions than others does not mean we should take that system for granted and let less than satisfactory leaders run our countries, we must always try to make our system better not allow it to decline, as we are now. The price of what we have is eternal vigalence in keeping it at this level or as i said making it better.

There's my idealism for the day.
when i talk about the system i'm referring to the democratic system where we can voice our opinions.

i'm not talking about living conditions i'm talking about social conditions, basic human rights, knowing that at the end of the day the government hasn't screwed you over, economically anyway.

i think many people, especially our age take our conditions for granted. what percentage of first time 18 year olds who voted in the australian elections do you think actually thought about their decision? a girl's mum told one of the girls at our school A MUM that really all you had to do was walk in and get your name marked and not have to vote.

i'm not taking our system for granted, though i definately believe that there are people who can't fully appreciate the political and social conditions we live in.
 

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Ziff said:
These are assertions, they are not facts as you make them out to be. You still haven't justified why the invasion of Iraq and the War on Terror are bad things. You have said "what" you haven't said "why". This is the important one. I don't see a correlation between being a head of Government directing a war and being part of the infantry either. If you haven't noticed, these positions are very dissimilar.

Why was the war in Iraq bad. Ask the 1100 families who have lost a son or daughter who was in the US Army. How about the possible 100,000 Iraqis who have died (so far). Why was it bad? Why was it wrong? Because we were lied to. There were no 'weapons of mass destruction'. 90% of 20-24 year olds surveyed in a National Geographic poll, beleive that the group of hijackers from 9/11 was partly or mostly made up of Iraqis. Last time I checked, the group was made up mostly of SAUDIS. Is that not a reason why it was bad? It was not based on fact or reason, and they have lied to us consistently about it. Did you ever see Farenheit 9/11? Remember the part where the solider in Iraq's final letter to home ended "I hope they dont re-elect this idiot".

My point about Bush never having served (was that what you were referring to) in combat is an important one. It should be noted the George Bush didn't even have a passport untill 2001. He had never left the USA. He has NO IDEA how the rest of the world works, he assumes it's all like Corporate America. Evidence: When Osama Bin Laden was first being looked for, the US was offering US$15 million for his capture dead or alive. After 6 months, no Bin Laden........what did Bush do? He upped the reward to US$30 million. As if the goat herders in Afghanistan had decided $15 million was not enough for them to turn in Bin Laden.

More evidence; in his recent video, Bin Laden said that Bush is a fool if he thinks that America is his target because as Bush says "of our freedom'. Bin Laden said, "if we are attacking the US because of it's freedom, why arent we attacking Sweden?"

My point is, that Bush is out of touch with reality, and I find it disturbing that people will back him to keep them safe, while a man who has actually defended his country in combat, and been shot 3 times for his troubles, stands by idle.
 

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danie said:
a girl's mum told one of the girls at our school A MUM that really all you had to do was walk in and get your name marked and not have to vote.

It's true though....its not compulsory to register a vote, so long as you turn up to the place of voting. Personally I would never throw away my vote like that, and I think we have a better system than in the US where voting is not compulsory, however I think it is a fundamental right that a person does not have to vote if they don't want to. Maybe they don't feel any of the candidates will fairly reperesent them. Maybe they don't care. At least if the people who dont care dont vote, a more accurate election will take place because there will be no donkey votes
 

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Cactus said:
It's true though....its not compulsory to register a vote, so long as you turn up to the place of voting. Personally I would never throw away my vote like that, and I think we have a better system than in the US where voting is not compulsory, however I think it is a fundamental right that a person does not have to vote if they don't want to. Maybe they don't feel any of the candidates will fairly reperesent them. Maybe they don't care. At least if the people who dont care dont vote, a more accurate election will take place because there will be no donkey votes
fair enough.

i just think that voting is a privilege.

and i don't think some people understand how important it is.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/04/14/timor.vote/

Timor voters choose first president
April 14, 2002 Posted: 5:11 AM EDT (0911 GMT)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

DILI, East Timor -- Polling has ended in East Timor's first ever presidential election with voters turning out in large numbers to elect the man who will lead the country into independence.

Across the territory voters began queuing from early in the morning with many walking for miles from remote jungle villages to cast their ballot.

In the capital Dili, in a display of unity rarely seen in presidential elections elsewhere, the two candidates contesting the election walked to their polling station arm in arm to cast their ballot.

Former guerilla leader Xanana Gusmao is widely expected to dominate the vote, easily beating Francisco Xavier do Amaral who briefly held the post of East Timorese president before the Indonesian invasion in 1975.

Gusmao, who is already regarded by many East Timorese as the territory's de facto leader, says his priority will be economic growth.

For his part Amaral has said he is resigned to coming in second, saying he is running largely to give East Timorese a choice.

The election is the final milestone before East Timor is formally granted independence on May 20, ending a long history of bloodshed and foreign occupation -- first by Portugal and then by Indonesia.

Among those lining up to vote Sunday was Afonso Mendoza.

"This is an important day for us," he told CNN. "I have to vote to secure a better future for my daughter."

Another voter, Joao Fernandes, said he had waited a long time for this day to arrive.

Joao was a pro-independence guerrilla fighter and still carries the scars where he was wounded battling Indonesian troops.

"We suffered under the Portuguese," he said. "The Indonesians were worse. Now, we're so happy we're gaining independence."

The role of president will be largely ceremonial under East Timor's constitution, but the new leader is expected to play a crucial role in uniting the territory and helping heal the bitter wounds of the past.

The ballot is the last major step in East Timor's long and often bloody road to independence
Around 430,000 residents were eligible to vote in Sunday's poll.

The formal announcement of the winner is scheduled to take place on April 17 with analysts forecasting that Gusmao could win as much as 80 percent of the vote.

The United Nations -- which has administered East Timor since the territory voted to cut ties with Indonesia in 1999 -- says no security problems have been reported and it expects a huge turnout.

Dozens of local and international observer groups have been monitoring the progress of voting.

Most East Timorese consider the result a foregone conclusion, with many observers focusing on the difficulties Gusmao will face as the country moves to full independence.

One of the key concerns raised by observers is whether he will be able to work with the ruling Fretilin party, which has held back from backing Gusmao's candidacy.

Gusmao says there is no tension between them, just differences of opinion.

For many East Timorese, the fact that the election was held at all is a triumph after years of struggle, but it doesn't obscure the immense challenges facing this new nation.

Independent East Timor will be one of the poorest countries in Asia, unemployment is close to 80 percent, there is no industry or foreign investment, and virtually no tourism.

In villages across the territory life is a daily struggle to survive with no running water, sporadic electricity supplies and minimal medical care.

-- CNN Senior Asia Correspondent Mike Chinoy contributed to this report
 

Senator04

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Cactus said:
Why was the war in Iraq bad. Ask the 1100 families who have lost a son or daughter who was in the US Army. How about the possible 100,000 Iraqis who have died (so far). Why was it bad? Why was it wrong? Because we were lied to. There were no 'weapons of mass destruction'. 90% of 20-24 year olds surveyed in a National Geographic poll, beleive that the group of hijackers from 9/11 was partly or mostly made up of Iraqis. Last time I checked, the group was made up mostly of SAUDIS. Is that not a reason why it was bad? It was not based on fact or reason, and they have lied to us consistently about it. Did you ever see Farenheit 9/11? Remember the part where the solider in Iraq's final letter to home ended "I hope they dont re-elect this idiot".

My point about Bush never having served (was that what you were referring to) in combat is an important one. It should be noted the George Bush didn't even have a passport untill 2001. He had never left the USA. He has NO IDEA how the rest of the world works, he assumes it's all like Corporate America. Evidence: When Osama Bin Laden was first being looked for, the US was offering US$15 million for his capture dead or alive. After 6 months, no Bin Laden........what did Bush do? He upped the reward to US$30 million. As if the goat herders in Afghanistan had decided $15 million was not enough for them to turn in Bin Laden.

More evidence; in his recent video, Bin Laden said that Bush is a fool if he thinks that America is his target because as Bush says "of our freedom'. Bin Laden said, "if we are attacking the US because of it's freedom, why arent we attacking Sweden?"

My point is, that Bush is out of touch with reality, and I find it disturbing that people will back him to keep them safe, while a man who has actually defended his country in combat, and been shot 3 times for his troubles, stands by idle.
Added to the idea of the problems particularly in Iraq, is the simple fact that Hussein was the only one holding the country together, the democratic regime may survive while the US stays, but don't kid yourself as soon as they leave the sytem will collapse and civil war will develop between the Sunni, Shiites and Kurds, not to mention the other factions. You can't just create a democartioc regime for the sake of saying its a democracy. The US should have earnt that from their experience in South Vietnam. The US holds the opinion that democracy works everywhere, the simple facts are it doesn't. Iraq has probably never had a democratic government, in all of human civilisation, and to just create a democratic system there is luducris, because the basis isn't there for success.

I'm not trying to justify the brutality of the Baath regime but it is clear to me, that as many people if not more may die in a civil war now after the US leaves anway. This would say to me that it is a completly unjustifiable war in the long term. However long term planning never seems to influence American foreign policy

Danie, voting is a privelege I completely agree, but other cultures don't see it that way and for various reasons democracy isn't viable
 
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jm1234567890

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Alot of you seem devastated that Bush was elected... The world wont end. Bush isn't an extremist by any stretch of the imgination. It will just be 4 more years of a conservative government, not so bad.

sure you might be unhappy, but i don't think is is such a big deal.
 

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