Islamic society dicussion in history (2 Viewers)

[Zayd]

why are jihads[both lesser and greater] being still used today? the crusades ended hundreds of years ago, this isnt the middle ages anymore and violence and fanatisism gets you nowhere.

also why are muslims so constricted by religious rules that infringe on their freedom. Not allowed to draw muhammed[o rly?]
women have to hide their evil, sinful bodies so as not to tempt man - an animal that cannot control himself

why do muslims grow beards?

Why are women ripped off when it comes to inheritence?

how come execution is seen as a good punishment for adultry? isnt that a little...barbaric and archaic? once again this isnt the middle ages

why are muslim countries technologically poor? [no a hole in the ground does not a toilet make]
as far as iam concerned islamic society may have been technologically advanced and civilised for 1500 years ago, but the rest of the world has moved on and they have stayed put. The ancient Egyptians had similar technoledgy for gods sake!

The Glorious Qur’an contains specific and detailed guidance regarding the division of the inherited wealth, among the rightful beneficiaries.

The Qur’anic verses that contain guidance regarding inheritance are:

* Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 180

* Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 240

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 7-9

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 19

* Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 33 and

* Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 106-108

There are three verses in the Qur’an that broadly describe the share of close relatives i.e. Surah Nisah chapter 4 verses 11, 12 and 176. The translation of these verses are as follows:

"Allah (swt) (thus) directs you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females, if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; If only one, her share is a half.

For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; If no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

In what your wives leave, your share is half. If they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eight; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to anyone). Thus it is ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-Knowing Most Forbearing"
[Al-Qur’an 4:11-12]

"They ask thee for a legal decision. Say: Allah directs (them) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If (such a deceased was) a woman who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance. If there are two sisters, they shall have two thirds of the inheritance (between them). If there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah (swt) makes clear to you (His knowledge of all things).
[Al-Qur’an 4:176]

In most of the cases, a woman inherits half of what her male counterpart inherits. However, this is not always the case. In case the deceased has left no ascendant or descendent but has left the uterine brother and sister, each of the two inherit one sixth. If the deceased has left children, both the parents that is mother and father get an equal share and inherit one sixth each. In certain cases, a woman can also inherit a share that is double that of the male. If the deceased is a woman who has left no children, brothers or sisters and is survived only by her husband, mother and father, the husband inherits half the property while the mother inherits one third and the father the remaining one sixth. In this particular case, the mother inherits a share that is double that of the father. It is true that as a general rule, in most cases, the female inherits a share that is half that of the male. For instance in the following cases:

1. daughter inherits half of what the son inherits,

2. wife inherits 1/8th and husband 1/4th if the deceased has no children.

3. Wife inherits 1/4th and husband 1/2 if the deceased has children

4. If the deceased has no ascendant or descendent, the sister inherits a share that is half that of the brother.

In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family. In order to do be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance. For example, if a man dies leaving about money. One Hundred and Fifty Thousand, for the children (i.e one son and one daughter) the son inherits One Hundred Thousand and the daughter only Fifty Thousand. Out of the one hundred thousand which the son inherits, as his duty towards his family, he may have to spend on them almost the entire amount or say about eighty thousand and thus he has a small percentage of inheritance, say about twenty thousand, left for himself. On the other hand, the daughter, who inherits fifty thousand is not bound to spend a single penny on anybody. She can keep the entire amount for herself. Would you prefer inheriting one hundred thousand and spending eighty thousand from it, or inheriting fifty thousand and having the entire amount to yourself?

 

[withoutaface]

Men and women are not exactly the same biologically, socially and psychologically. Would it then be logical to give them the exact same rights and responsibilities?

Not all men are biologically the same, why give them the same rights and responsibilities?

 

[sly fly]

^Also, the male/s has the responsibility of providing for his biological family financially (ie. aged parents etc) even after he has married and established his own family, whereas his sister/s don't

 

[sly fly]

waf - when laws are made, they are made generally, you can't expect them to cover every single exception

 

[Serius]

Yeah good post, i think fundamentally we are going to dissagree and its not going to bring light anything new so as long as this discussion stays flame free both sides should learn something, thats why iam trying to word my questions in a way that my bias agaisnt islam isnt shown.[note i said tryingnot suceeding]

Lesser and greater? "Jihad" means to struggle. I perform jihad every time I go to university. I learn in order to improve myself, in an attempt to become a better person, and consequently, a better Muslim. This struggle, involving mental and physical acts, is jihad if the purpose is to please God. This is not to say that there is no physical jihad - Muslims are encouraged to defend themselves against violent oppressors.

you know what i mean, jihad loosly means to struggle, but lesser jihad tends to mean a religious struggle, where as greater jihad tends to mean a physical struggle against attackers of islam. Why do muslims have to struggle against other religions? cant it just be " you have your beleifs i have mine, we can talk about it by no struggling allowed"

Sacrifices must be made in order for a Muslim to obey God. I want do to something, but God doesn't not allow me to. This exercise of self-control is central in Islam. It's present in every belief - Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... even vegans, for example, sacrifice certain "pleasures" for a greater good.

thats something i dont get, why do sacrifices have to be made? Chrstianity[like u said, a similiar religion "of the book"] isnt that much focused on sacrifice. I understand the idea behind not drawing muhammed but whats the big deal? christianity says not to wear clothing of two different threads and people do it.

As for Muslim women and men covering themselves, it's about modesty. You're skewed view on this matter is more than obvious... Why don't we see everyone wearing mini-skirts, thongs and tight/revealing tops? Why don't we see men wearing only briefs, for example? Apart from clothes protecting their wearers physically, each and every person has a different concept of modesty. Some women might find mini-skirts revealing, while others may find them acceptable. Some men find it totally accceptable to wear a singlet to uni, while others don't. Who are you to judge a person's standards?

i think you are dodging the issue there, i dont think it is about[atleast not totally] modesty. Why are women so brutally punished for revealing parts of their body then? if you want to say its modesty, its more a form of religious modesty than ones own individual idea of mdoesty. Maybe in australia some muslim girls get away with dressing normally, but in the islamic countries they would be brutally punished for expressing their own individual concept of modesty. What happens to a girl in Saudi if she thinks wearing a mini-skirt is acceptable? I am not judging a persons standards, i am judging a religious standard that is outdated by a few hundred years.


who was the first muslim? muhhammed, abraham? jesus? moses? i am not really sure

In Islam, money a man has is required to be used to support his family. The remaining amount can then be spent by him. Women are not required to spend any of their money for the family. Their money is theirs. In order to make things equal, women are given less.

Yes i also have read that bit of the koran, I thought you said islam was a religion and not a culure? then why are they dictating even how one is to receive their inheritance? what about muslims in modern countries, are women still aloowed to spend money on their family? What about if a sister with a family and a business man brothers parents were to die, 3/4 of the money goes to the brother but the sister gets less, even tho she has to support a family...kind of odd

Well, I'd say that adultery has become more acceptable in society. In Islam, this isn't the case. Adultery is as disgusting as it was centuries ago.

but its still their choice, they choose to sleep with whoever they want to, why is that a crime punishable by death? i think its morally wrong, but it shouldnt exactly be a crime

That isn't anything new... for example, many Aussies look down on Asians because their willing to work for less money. In the majority of cases, people who are prejudiced against large groups on the basis of what a small section of these people do or did are generally towards the bottom of the education ladder.

yeah i guess thats the sad truth, people will always find reasons to look down on one another, for some reason the muslims choose the jews[ like they havent suffered enough allready, kill one prophet, and they are still paying for it]

You don't have a lot of respect for Muslims. For some reason, when it comes to Muslims, there isn't much tolerance and understanding in what we believe in. And what I say something like that, the usual reply is "Oh but look at those leb guys raping them aussie gurls!". Please, there are morons in every group, and they don't represent the majority... it's not hard to understand the implications of that.

no i guess i dont have alot of respect for muslims, i dont think someones religious beleifs should be respected really, show me how logical religion is and how it is better than no religion and i will begrudgingly respect islam. Dont feel islam is targeted here, iam willing to insult the intelegience of any religeous person, its just the debate on tuesday thing and well...

its like this, the majority of Christians arent fundamentalist, they take their religion to be a metaphor for life, or an instruction on a way to live they should strive for, or perhaps a roadmap to guide one through life, the thing is that fundmanentalist christians are seen as fanatical nutjobs by everyone.

My problem seems to be that the majority of muslims are infact fundamentalist, they hear " 100 lashes to woman for adultry" and guess wat, they go and do exactly that, if their book metaphorically tells them it iswrong to own slaves from a country geogrpahically above you but doesnt mention below you, they would go and get themselves some africans[ this is infact a direction written in Levidicus, just most christians donttake it seriously] even if the litteral translation seems a bit rediculous, instead of taking the meaning to be

" it is wrong to take slaves from other countries for they are humans too and should be seen as equal, if not above you"

and yes there are morons in every group, but if i were to go rob a bank in istanbul, i wouldnt exactly shout out things like "Christian pride!" and then proceed to rape the teller whilst yelling about how iam giving it to her aussie style. There are morons in every group, but unfortunately these morons havent been taught properly about islam and so think it is ok to do these things, and are infact proud that they are doing it for islam. If i did do those things, it would be on the front page, there would be demonstrations and john howard appoligising that i do not representthe majority, unfortunately when muslims do bad shit and basically make the rest of the muslims look really bad, that there isnt some kind of outcry about it. Low blow i know, you can ignore it if you want but its definetely something to consider, instead of lying down whilst being badmouthed to the rest of the world from within, perhaps a little lesser jihading is required

[edit: first quote took up 2 much space]

 

[withoutaface]

waf - when laws are made, they are made generally, you can't expect them to cover every single exception

Why should laws be made at all? Why not leave it up to the individual couple to negotiate?

 

[Zayd]

Why should laws be made at all? Why not leave it up to the individual couple to negotiate?

thats like saying "allow the criminal or rapist to decide his own punishment" ........obviously the criminal will decide to get away from as much punishment as possible. Simarlarly, if two couples negotiate theie responsibilites, each will be trying to get out of as much responsiblitiy as possible. And yes, in today's society many couples to believe in your quote, and as a matter of fact they do negotiate their responsiblities with their partner. But the increased divorse rates over the past couple of decades, shows that it hasnt worked out for many. Mainly because people try to favour themselves and as a result try to avoid as many comittments as possible.
Hence, having been provided with a set of rights and responsiblities makes it a whole lot easier for both sides to get along with.

 

[HotShot]

I believe the Hijaab does jack shit, it is not an indication of modesty or honour. Modesty can be shown in other manners, and honour is not shown by what u weay, but what u do.

thus many of the women and peeps, claim that they wear the hijaab oout of free will, but i dont think this is the case.

i feel they wear because the the quran says so, and this not free choice! its bit like peer pressure.

 

[tempco]

Yeah good post, i think fundamentally we are going to dissagree and its not going to bring light anything new so as long as this discussion stays flame free both sides should learn something, thats why iam trying to word my questions in a way that my bias agaisnt islam isnt shown.[note i said tryingnot suceeding]

Point taken.

you know what i mean, jihad loosly means to struggle, but lesser jihad tends to mean a religious struggle, where as greater jihad tends to mean a physical struggle against attackers of islam. Why do muslims have to struggle against other religions? cant it just be " you have your beleifs i have mine, we can talk about it by no struggling allowed"

Not really. Jihad's translation to English is "to struggle". It is a root word, and many other Arabic words stem from it. For example, Ijtihad is derived from Jihad. As far as I know, this "greater" and "lesser" Jihad is a concoction of apologetics amongst the Muslim community - where by they've labelled physical Jihad in all its forms (e.g. war, self-defence against oppressors) as the "lesser" of the two Jihads. This is not the case, however.

There is a verse in the Qur'an which calls Muslims to make "Jihad" against non-Muslims, but as far as I know, this roughly translates to spreading the message of Islam using the Qur'an - that is, practicing the values of Islam as mentioned in the Qur'an. I believe that becoming an exemplary human being is considered the best form of da'wah (or spreading Islam). For a more detailed explanation of Jihad in it's forms, check out Wiki's entry on Jihad.

thats something i dont get, why do sacrifices have to be made? Chrstianity[like u said, a similiar religion "of the book"] isnt that much focused on sacrifice. I understand the idea behind not drawing muhammed but whats the big deal? christianity says not to wear clothing of two different threads and people do it.

In order to please God, basically. Gratification comes in all shapes and forms, and for Muslims, it comes in that form.

As for not drawing Muhammad, I think it's along the lines of idol-worship... it is forbidden to create drawings or sculptures of promiment people in Islam (esp. Muhammad) to avoid believers "worshipping" these actual figures, instead of God.

i think you are dodging the issue there, i dont think it is about[atleast not totally] modesty. Why are women so brutally punished for revealing parts of their body then? if you want to say its modesty, its more a form of religious modesty than ones own individual idea of mdoesty. Maybe in australia some muslim girls get away with dressing normally, but in the islamic countries they would be brutally punished for expressing their own individual concept of modesty. What happens to a girl in Saudi if she thinks wearing a mini-skirt is acceptable? I am not judging a persons standards, i am judging a religious standard that is outdated by a few hundred years.

Women shouldn't be harrassed, or punished for revealing parts of their body. That's just stupid. Fear as a motivator, albeit a quick fix, does nothing for one's faith.

However, why is covering up considered outdated? Does the modern woman necessarily have to dress in a less conservative fashion in order to be considered "up to date"? As I've said previously, the concept of modesty varies between each person.

who was the first muslim? muhhammed, abraham? jesus? moses? i am not really sure

According to Islam, the first Muslim was Adam.

Yes i also have read that bit of the koran, I thought you said islam was a religion and not a culure? then why are they dictating even how one is to receive their inheritance? what about muslims in modern countries, are women still aloowed to spend money on their family? What about if a sister with a family and a business man brothers parents were to die, 3/4 of the money goes to the brother but the sister gets less, even tho she has to support a family...kind of odd

Islam is a religion, but it covers much more than your standard religion. It's basically a way of life... and covers every aspect you could ever imagine. Of course, Muslim women are allowed to spend money on their family - it just isn't their responsibility to.

In the case you've outlined, there's nothing stopping the brother from giving his sister a portion of his inheritance.

but its still their choice, they choose to sleep with whoever they want to, why is that a crime punishable by death? i think its morally wrong, but it shouldnt exactly be a crime

Islam thinks otherwise. Sexual freedoms are considered to be a positive step in Western society, but promiscuity is condemned in Islam. The family unit is of paramount importance in Islam, and by making adultery a crime, it would deter people from committing it, and increase the chances of maintaining healthy family relations.

yeah i guess thats the sad truth, people will always find reasons to look down on one another, for some reason the muslims choose the jews[ like they havent suffered enough allready, kill one prophet, and they are still paying for it]

I wouldn't say Muslims... more like Arabs. There are many non-Muslim Arabs that have similar sentiments towards Israelis. Basically, Israelis could screw the Arabs over because they had the brains and money to do it. The Arabs didn't, so many of them are bitter about it, and rather than improving themselves, they've decided to shift the blame on the other to absolve them of their responsibility. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

no i guess i dont have alot of respect for muslims, i dont think someones religious beleifs should be respected really, show me how logical religion is and how it is better than no religion and i will begrudgingly respect islam. Dont feel islam is targeted here, iam willing to insult the intelegience of any religeous person, its just the debate on tuesday thing and well...

its like this, the majority of Christians arent fundamentalist, they take their religion to be a metaphor for life, or an instruction on a way to live they should strive for, or perhaps a roadmap to guide one through life, the thing is that fundmanentalist christians are seen as fanatical nutjobs by everyone.

My problem seems to be that the majority of muslims are infact fundamentalist, they hear " 100 lashes to woman for adultry" and guess wat, they go and do exactly that, if their book metaphorically tells them it iswrong to own slaves from a country geogrpahically above you but doesnt mention below you, they would go and get themselves some africans[ this is infact a direction written in Levidicus, just most christians donttake it seriously] even if the litteral translation seems a bit rediculous, instead of taking the meaning to be

" it is wrong to take slaves from other countries for they are humans too and should be seen as equal, if not above you"

and yes there are morons in every group, but if i were to go rob a bank in istanbul, i wouldnt exactly shout out things like "Christian pride!" and then proceed to rape the teller whilst yelling about how iam giving it to her aussie style. There are morons in every group, but unfortunately these morons havent been taught properly about islam and so think it is ok to do these things, and are infact proud that they are doing it for islam. If i did do those things, it would be on the front page, there would be demonstrations and john howard appoligising that i do not representthe majority, unfortunately when muslims do bad shit and basically make the rest of the muslims look really bad, that there isnt some kind of outcry about it. Low blow i know, you can ignore it if you want but its definetely something to consider, instead of lying down whilst being badmouthed to the rest of the world from within, perhaps a little lesser jihading is required

[edit: first quote took up 2 much space]

I understand where you're coming from. Muslims are still very attached to their religion when compared to other religions. But again, there are those who take the Qur'an literally, and there are those that are more liberal. The issue with Muslims is that there is this culture of rejecting and condemning things which they do not agree with, rather than critically discussing and arguing these ideas - especially between scholars and intellectuals. It's quite a sad state of affairs really... however, a few gems (e.g. Dr Jamal Badawi) are examples of what Muslim scholars should be doing... going out there and engaging other ideals and religions, and not isolating Islam and keeping it between a group of senile old men that have vested interests in "Islam" being in power and not being questioned.

 

[SabtheLab]

Serius, the harsh punishments carried out against women who reveal body parts in places like afghan and saudi has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious decree. nowhere does shariah law state that a woman is punished for not wearng the hijab. that punioshment, my friend, is cultural and not to be confused with a religious command.

Hotshot, i urge you to compare rape rates here and in islamic countries. better yet, the rape rates of hijabi women and non-hijabis in THIS country. i think you'll find that the presence of hijab tends to ebb any potential rapist's drive to sexually assault a woman. somehow, the lack of flesh is somewhat off-putting to these vulgar, lecherous men. and for your information, muslim women are not forced to wear the hijab. admittedly, there are (very publicised, conveniently) cases of women being forced against their will, but the overhwelming majority do it out of their free will. the increasing number of muslim women choosing to wear it in australia is a testament to that. noone is forcing us here. there is no extremist government pressuring us to remain covered. and for your info hotshot, hijab is a religious command but in practise, women have the choice to wear it.

 

[tempco]

Bullshit.

Nope.

 

[SabtheLab]

anti-mathmite, i feel compelle to point out that as you are not muslim, you lack the authority to state whether or not islam allows women to be punished for not wearing hijab. as a muslim, i feel compelled to correct you and re-state: women ARE NOT punished for not wearing hijab. Period.

 

[Generator]

Hotshot, i urge you to compare rape rates here and in islamic countries. better yet, the rape rates of hijabi women and non-hijabis in THIS country. i think you'll find that the presence of hijab tends to ebb any potential rapist's drive to sexually assault a woman. somehow, the lack of flesh is somewhat off-putting to these vulgar, lecherous men.

What a load of crap.

Tell me, what would a piece of cloth do to stop a person intent on carrying out what is essentially a power crime? In what way can we compare rates of rape between two completely different socio-political situations (for starters, one being open and the other being closed)?

Also, I thought that you were one of those who quite often claimed that today's 'Islamic' countries aren't Islamic?

Edit: Bloody hell, I had to reopen a 'debate' of old... Oh well, given that the threadstarter appears to be having a somewhat constructive debate with others, I think that it would be best if I just ignored my previous statement (till Tuesday, anyway).

 

[tempco]

SabtheLab, the number of rapes in "Islamic" countries are much higher than the numbers in, for example, Australia. Take a look at Pakistan (Islamic Republic of Pakistan)... makes me sick to the bone, that country does.

 

[SabtheLab]

generator, rape may be a power crime but when he decides to attack who do u think will be a more likely target- a chick in a mini-skirt or a girl in hijab?

 

[Generator]

generator, rape may be a power crime but when he decides to attack who do u think will be a more likely target- a chick in a mini-skirt or a girl in hijab?

Ah, the woman/girl who happens to be there at the time, maybe?

 

[tempco]

Ah, the woman/girl who happens to be there at the time, maybe?

Well, what a person is wearing sometimes does contribute to her chances of being raped. For example, in the Sydney gang rapes of 2000, many of the girls were lured into quite places with promises of drugs. Would a rapist approach someone wearing a scarf in this case?

 

[Generator]

Well, what a person is wearing sometimes does contribute to her chances of being raped. For example, in the Sydney gang rapes of 2000, many of the girls were lured into quite places with promises of drugs. Would a rapist approach someone wearing a scarf in this case?

Was it actually what the victims were supposedly wearing or was it what the rapists thought of the entire cultural paradigm that the clothing supposedly represented? I'm fairly certain that it was the latter - it indicated a total lack of respect and a warped sense of power, not a 'lustful' exercise.

 

[Zayd]

SabtheLab, the number of rapes in "Islamic" countries are much higher than the numbers in, for example, Australia. Take a look at Pakistan (Islamic Republic of Pakistan)... makes me sick to the bone, that country does.

Its impossible to compare the number of rapes in Australia to those in Pakistan, as it has a population 9 times greater than that of Australia's. Why don't you compare Pakistan's rape stats to the rape stats in the US?

 

[Serius]

Women shouldn't be harrassed, or punished for revealing parts of their body. That's just stupid. Fear as a motivator, albeit a quick fix, does nothing for one's faith.

However, why is covering up considered outdated? Does the modern woman necessarily have to dress in a less conservative fashion in order to be considered "up to date"? As I've said previously, the concept of modesty varies between each person.
Islam is a religion, but it covers much more than your standard religion. It's basically a way of life... and covers every aspect you could ever imagine. Of course, Muslim women are allowed to spend money on their family - it just isn't their responsibility to.

In the case you've outlined, there's nothing stopping the brother from giving his sister a portion of his inheritance.

damns straight they shouldnt be harassed, and i dont necessarily think covering up is outdated, i just think its important to be able to choose. For example when i go out i see alot of girls in a-typical short ruffeled black skirts, a very wide silvery belt and some sort of tight, sleevless top. I think its a bit too much and doesnt look that good. But i feel that to look good, and still be dressing modestly one doesnt need to cover every part of their skin except their face... e.g i think this looks allright, is kinda elegant but is also modest

i have an eye for girls who know how to dress really well, but according to the Koran it is immodest because of no sleeves? wierd.

About the scenario i gave, it was more to the point that if the brother wanted to be a bastard and take 3/4 of the money, even though he has less need for it he could and there would be nothing to stop him, leaving the woman with less to support her family on.

Islam thinks otherwise. Sexual freedoms are considered to be a positive step in Western society, but promiscuity is condemned in Islam. The family unit is of paramount importance in Islam, and by making adultery a crime, it would deter people from committing it, and increase the chances of maintaining healthy family relations.

i cant really say much on this other than i dissagree. In order to fully understand why islam thinks otherwise,i would have to know why the west values sexual freedoms and beyodn the simple - its freedom, the freedom to choose, which is what the west is all about, i am not to sure why that particular ideal is valued so much.

i understand where you're coming from. Muslims are still very attached to their religion when compared to other religions. But again, there are those who take the Qur'an literally, and there are those that are more liberal. The issue with Muslims is that there is this culture of rejecting and condemning things which they do not agree with, rather than critically discussing and arguing these ideas - especially between scholars and intellectuals. It's quite a sad state of affairs really... however, a few gems (e.g. Dr Jamal Badawi) are examples of what Muslim scholars should be doing... going out there and engaging other ideals and religions, and not isolating Islam and keeping it between a group of senile old men that have vested interests in "Islam" being in power and not being questioned.

]

those are two very good points, its really hard for me as an outsider to understand why muslims reject and condem rather than discuss, its quite frustrating. The idea of an islamic powerbase is one ive also had before. Isolating the islamic world is a good idea for those in power, because it protects their power and means they cant be questioned. "Why must we pray 5 times a day" "Because i said so and i am not to be questioned for [insert bullshit reason like: god put me in power]"

Serius, the harsh punishments carried out against women who reveal body parts in places like afghan and saudi has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious decree. nowhere does shariah law state that a woman is punished for not wearng the hijab. that punioshment, my friend, is cultural and not to be confused with a religious command.

Hotshot, i urge you to compare rape rates here and in islamic countries. better yet, the rape rates of hijabi women and non-hijabis in THIS country. i think you'll find that the presence of hijab tends to ebb any potential rapist's drive to sexually assault a woman. somehow, the lack of flesh is somewhat off-putting to these vulgar, lecherous men. and for your information, muslim women are not forced to wear the hijab. admittedly, there are (very publicised, conveniently) cases of women being forced against their will, but the overhwelming majority do it out of their free will. the increasing number of muslim women choosing to wear it in australia is a testament to that. noone is forcing us here. there is no extremist government pressuring us to remain covered. and for your info hotshot, hijab is a religious command but in practise, women have the choice to wear it.

yes maybe it isnt strictly stated in any religious text that a woman who reveals herself should be severely punishedl,[ i havent read the koran that thoroughly to be honnest] but the way modesty is emphasised means that inevitably something of the kind will come about. As tempco said, fear is a useful tool in enforcing others to do what you want, even if what you want is in your opinion the morally right thing to do. This means that punishment is the best means of enforcing compliance. If women could so easily choose what to wear and how to act, why do western women who visit most islamic countries have to wear the hijab? if it was so much about choosing they would be allowed to wear whatever the hell they want.


i dont think the hijab is so much a rape deterent or anything tangible like that, my impression from this thread is that the idea behind muslims mostly wear it because it is about modesty[ they same reason we dont walk around naked even though australia has the climate to do so without our bits feezing off] and some wierd religious reasons that i dont fully understand. If it decreases rape its a side effect, but the truth is it doesnt, most likely what decreases rape is severe punishments like execution that also exist in alot of islamic countries

that is if there is a difference in rape , figgures for the occurance of rape are so bloody hard to get, because the girl could be lieing, so we could go to convictions of rape, but so few occur[ around 4% of court cases result in a conviction] that obviously the results are skewed.
Its also quite obvious that in a country where you can be beaten to death by your father for bringing dishonour on the family[ by being raped] alot of rape cases remain unreported. Even in australia only about 30% of rape cases are reported[ or so ive heard, its probably wrong]

thats enough on rape

i am starting to think the reason islam spread so rapidly when it was first introduced is because it was basically a superior system in almost every way to what was available at the time, i very much doubt it was picked for its religious reasons[ take the 1 god thing, alot of religions didnt have that, so i dont know why it would be appealing] but a man has to beleive in something i guess.

I think there is alot of arrogance in the islamic world, a feeling of superiority perhaps[ to be fair alot of other religions have it aswell] but what is worse is a uniform unwillingness to change, sometimes change is for the best, sometimesnot. Comprimises have to be made.

One very good compromise i saw was a swimsuit designed specifically for muslim girls that was basically a cut down, more stylish version of the hijab made out of swimmer material, meaning they could swim in a decent material that doesnt get watlerlogged, look like they are a human swimming instead of some type of whale wihat with the billowing robes and all, and it still [mostly] provides the modesty that so many muslims value.
Alot of these types of compromises need to be made i think so that islam can get along better with the west, because the west has tried to make atleast some compromises without changing who we are, but both cultures need to go one step closer, otherwise i dont really like the look of the future