Socratic teaching method? (1 Viewer)

[mr EaZy]

im still undecided whether or not to take up a position in the unsw law school

both UTS and UNSW are great unis - but the thing pushing me to unsw is not law but the complementary degree

and also uts is better if i decide to work in the city

so i wanted to ask- since unsw braggs about its socratic teaching of asking questions rather than tell the answers

how practical is it? my friend at unsw said its bs coz they give the answers anyways.... i guess leon trakman is just importing all his experiences from harvard into unsw LOL


on the face of it, socratic teaching is great- and ive unknowingly used it heaps of times to teach children .. but i want to know - for those who attend law schools that use it- whats ur experience?

cheers :wave:

 

[ManlyChief]

Re: socratic teaching method

The Socratic method is a form of dailectic, like Hegelian dilectics, or its Marxist counterpart. You will probably only find it in bastardised form in all but the most senior and advanced of undergraduate classes. Most classes will have a 'discussion' which is inferior as a medium because the Socratic method which relies on a dialogue between master and pupil. It works only when both master and pupil are both dedicated to the reasoned argument, the irradication of fallacy and both have carefully crafted their positions on the matters under scrutiny. In class sizes of more than 10, this is difficult to come by, and I think makes little difference to the learning experience of the individual student.

Do you think UNSW will offer you more than UTS in the companion degree?

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: socratic teaching method

Isn't the real issue with the Socratic teaching method that it's impossible to implement 'as a rule'?

Ie, what if your students aren't getting it? Don't you lead them onto the results with questions?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Re: socratic teaching method

From my experience, the Socratic teaching method works well in UNSW law classes.

It is enforced through class participation requirements. If you don't participate, you risk jeopardising up to 20% of your final mark.

When students do not contribute, the teacher usually pulls the class through with more direction, but usually there is plenty of interaction between teacher and student. Based on guidance and questioning from the teacher, one student will go through the facts, another will identify an issue, another will explain part of the reasoning, another will point out how it fits with precedent, etc.

In my opinion, this engagement has been more conducive to both learning and maintaining interest than being lecturered at. Certainly you feel the pressure to do your readings more, a positive thing.

Also from a general pedagogical perspective, interaction is one of the best ways to learn. Having to reformulate the text and cases in your own words and convey complex ideas to your class and the teacher often help you organise your thoughts and better understand the material. Sometimes after answering a question I've taken down notes on what I just said to the teacher, because I have polished my knowledge on something on the spot, or opened up a further question to pursue.

It does not work well in classes of over 30 students. It does not work well if you don't do your readings, or are too tired in class. It does not work well if your whole class consists of silent, lifeless international commerce zombie students. (The latter being a case where the teacher will go into spoon-feed mode and treat the class more as a lecture.)

 

[Rorix]

Re: socratic teaching method

Or if your tutor + other students delight in emotionally based logic:/

 

[ManlyChief]

Re: socratic teaching method

It is enforced through class participation requirements. If you don't participate, you risk jeopardising up to 20% of your final mark.

When students do not contribute, the teacher usually pulls the class through with more direction, but usually there is plenty of interaction between teacher and student. Based on guidance and questioning from the teacher, one student will go through the facts, another will identify an issue, another will explain part of the reasoning, another will point out how it fits with precedent, etc.

In my opinion, this engagement has been more conducive to both learning and maintaining interest than being lecturered at. Certainly you feel the pressure to do your readings more, a positive thing.

Also from a general pedagogical perspective, interaction is one of the best ways to learn. Having to reformulate the text and cases in your own words and convey complex ideas to your class and the teacher often help you organise your thoughts and better understand the material. Sometimes after answering a question I've taken down notes on what I just said to the teacher, because I have polished my knowledge on something on the spot, or opened up a further question to pursue.

But, is this the Socratic method or is this class discussion facilitated by a number of discussion questions from the instructor?

And wouldn't it be impossible to participate in a Socratic dialectic without first having a comprehensive knowledge of the reading specifically and the subject matter in general? After all, how can a student formulate a (seemingly) valid hypothesis and inquire into the validity of other hypotheses without first having a sound knowledge of the material?

 

[neo o]

Re: socratic teaching method

Or if your tutor + other students delight in emotionally based logic:/

Oxymorons for the win.

 

[santaslayer]

Re: socratic teaching method

UNSW is not the only uni that uses this method. As far as I know, the whole world does right now. It's shit because it forces the individual to search for answers and use their own logic/research to come to certain conclusions. It is good for the individual as a whole but is shit because you have to do 100000000 times the workload.

It also forces us to do the fucking readings pre class.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Re: socratic teaching method

But, is this the Socratic method or is this class discussion facilitated by a number of discussion questions from the instructor?

And wouldn't it be impossible to participate in a Socratic dialectic without first having a comprehensive knowledge of the reading specifically and the subject matter in general? After all, how can a student formulate a (seemingly) valid hypothesis and inquire into the validity of other hypotheses without first having a sound knowledge of the material?

We are expected to have gone through the readings and taken notes prior to class.

At UNSW law, class is meant to be a clarification, testing and polishing of the knowledge acquired through our reading. Most of the things we learn in the textbook are quite basic anyway, the teacher doesn't need to go spoon-feeding us things we can pick up ourselves. When it is very difficult material, then a lecture style is taken a little more, but generally everything we read can be understood with enough clarity to participate in class discussion and have a reasonable knowledge of the material. Additionally, this allows us time to go into more complex and detailed analysis without trudging through all the basic stuff.

From Wikipedia:

Law school

Socratic method is widely used in contemporary legal education by many law schools in the United States. In a typical class setting, the professor asks a question and calls on a student who may or may not have volunteered an answer. The professor either then continues to ask the student questions or moves on to another student.

These subsequent questions can take a few forms. Sometimes they seek to challenge the assumptions the student based the previous answer on until it breaks. Further questions can also be designed to move a student toward greater specificity, either in understanding a rule of law or a particular case. Finally professors use the Socratic method to allow students to come to legal principles on their own through carefully worded questions that spur a particular train of thought.

One hallmark of Socratic questioning is that typically there is more than one "correct" answer, and more often, no clear answer at all. The primary goal of Socratic method in law schools is not to answer usually unanswerable questions, but to explore the contours of often difficult legal issues and to teach students the critical thinking skills they will need as lawyers.

Sometimes, the class ends with a quick discussion of doctrinal foundations (legal rules) to anchor the students in contemporary legal understanding of an issue. In other classes the class simply ends and students are forced to figure out for themselves the legal rules or principles that were at issue. For this method to work, the students are expected to be prepared for class in advance by reading the assigned materials (case opinions, notes, law review articles, etc.) and by familiarizing themselves with the general outlines of the subject matter.

UNSW is not the only uni that uses this method. As far as I know, the whole world does right now.

Of course UNSW is not the only law school to use this method. Other law schools use it. I am told that a couple of years ago USYD apparently took it up as well.

It's shit because it forces the individual to search for answers and use their own logic/research to come to certain conclusions. It is good for the individual as a whole but is shit because you have to do 100000000 times the workload.

It also forces us to do the fucking readings pre class.

Your complaint is that you're too lazy to do the work. That's not a complaint about the teaching method, it's a complaint about yourself!

 

[ManlyChief]

Re: socratic teaching method

Of course UNSW is not the only law school to use this method. Other law schools use it. I am told that a couple of years ago USYD apparently took it up as well.

USyd's had it for a long time ... Remember - Socrates invented it. It's hardly a new concept.

I hope you don't hate me MS, we've not disagreed before - have we? Is this our first tiff? Hug.

 

[erawamai]

Re: socratic teaching method

It also forces us to do the fucking readings pre class.

Oh god no! How could they!?

I'm too emotionally drained to actually read this thread but my my opinion on the socratic method is that it is wonderful if everyone does what they should do and you have a good teacher who forces everyone to think. The teacher in this situation is a facilitator and not a lecturer. Of course if no one has done the reading or its 530 on Friday arvo the teacher will go back into lecture mode. The worst case is when the teacher is hell bent on the socratic and will continue using it when it is clear that its late and everyone is tired or no one has had the time to do their reading.

 

[melsc]

Re: socratic teaching method

It also forces us to do the fucking readings pre class.

Aren't you supposed to? Thats what I thought

 

[erawamai]

Re: socratic teaching method

Aren't you supposed to? Thats what I thought

You are but teachers are aware that not everyone can do their readings completely every class. The work load is often just too much. This doesn't mean that its aok to miss readings every few weeks. It's not a good thing.

However if you make no effort at doing your readings week after week you will fail and the teacher will hate you.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: socratic teaching method

You are but teachers are aware that not everyone can do their readings completely every class. The work load is often just too much. This doesn't mean that its aok to miss readings every few weeks. It's not a good thing.

However if you make no effort at doing your readings week after week you will fail and the teacher will hate you.

Getting on the wrong side of a tutor is evil, as well, so I would recommend sticking out the pain of doing all the readings until the time when you can safely judge what's more important.

Thankfully, I have only one Tute per day this sem...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Re: socratic teaching method

USyd's had it for a long time ... Remember - Socrates invented it. It's hardly a new concept.

They've sort of had it but they previously had a lecture/tutorial system.

All we have are "tutorials".

I hope you don't hate me MS, we've not disagreed before - have we? Is this our first tiff? Hug.

Manly, no-one could hate you even if they wanted to, you're too nice

 

[erawamai]

Re: socratic teaching method

 

[Demandred]

Re: Socratic teaching method

IMO, it's sucess will only be determined by the degree of involvement from the students. If everyone done their readings and are enthusiastic about the issues, then its awesome... Unfortunately that is a bit overly utopian, the reality is quite different.

Anyone sat through one of these classes filled with apathy?

 

[xeuyrawp]

Re: socratic teaching method

(pic)

Is that just me, or are they with a 1960s car with 1990s architecture behind them? Or is it a train?

And Demanded -- yes, I had a really bad philosophy tutor who couldn't get the class into any kind of enthusiastic state. He literally just shot questions back time after time.

If you asked him ANY kind of question, even something based on fact, he'd say 'What do you think?'

 

[erawamai]

Re: socratic teaching method

Is that just me, or are they with a 1960s car with 1990s architecture behind them? Or is it a train?

Who knows. But Ang Lee should win best director.

 

[Demandred]

Re: Socratic teaching method

Tis a train.