TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE: Unites States & China....? (1 Viewer)

[Not-That-Bright]

You're like an american trying to convince us that it's ok for them to destroy the brits because they won the civil war.

 

[berry580]

The Chinese Communist Party is hopelessly ineffecient and an embarassment on China's history.

It isn't about having rebel Chinese demanding self rule over their particular province, it's about resisting the absolute and undeniable shitness of the CCP, 'Chinese socialism' and the hopeless inability of the CCP to govern effeciently.

Taiwan independance.

Yes, the Chinese Communist Party is hopelessly ineffecient and now they're only one of the world's major power economically, politically, and militarily.

As for the Chinese rebels (Taiwanese), their government is so efficient to the point where you see POLITICIANS picking up chair and having a gang fight in the 'PARLIAMENT' almost routinely. Not to mention their prestigous method in gaining 'recognition' by countries you'll never find without a microscope in the world atlas- by annual 'contributions'. :uhhuh: Even then, around only 20 countries 'support' them. (You can exclude most if not the whole of Europe from the 20 odd countries)

 

[Xayma]

Yes but they are still love to claim to be a developing country

 

[leetom]

You're like an american trying to convince us that it's ok for them to destroy the brits because they won the civil war.

What a stupid analogy. I don't know much about American history, but I know that the American Civil War was fought between Americans of the south, and Americans of the north. Britain didn't take part in the civil war. That's what makes it a civil war.

I think you're referring to the War of Independance.

 

[leetom]

Yes, the Chinese Communist Party is hopelessly ineffecient and now they're only one of the world's major power economically, politically, and militarily.

As for the Chinese rebels (Taiwanese), their government is so efficient to the point where you see POLITICIANS picking up chair and having a gang fight in the 'PARLIAMENT' almost routinely. Not to mention their prestigous method in gaining 'recognition' by countries you'll never find without a microscope in the world atlas- by annual 'contributions'. :uhhuh: Even then, around only 20 countries 'support' them. (You can exclude most if not the whole of Europe from the 20 odd countries)

True, China's rapid economic growth in the past half century is incredible, however it has done little in improving the quality of life of the Chinese people. In recent times, a vibrant middle class has emerged but this is a very small percentage of the population, the great deal of Chinese living in terrible conditions in the cities or the provinces. Massive unemployment, poor social security and poor services all prevail in China today. Those that are employed often work for a pittance.

Just what do you mean by a political major power? I suppose the CCP has allowed China to hold strength on the international level, but thats it. The poeple are unhappy. They're not even allowed to practise ancient Chinese customs. Surely a chinese-australian zealot like yourself cannot support a political party that bans age-old Chinese traditions. Look at the falun gong for example, a harmless religious sect that is brutally supressed by the CCP.

The CCP is a tyrannical political party and relies solely on the supression of individual thought to hold power. If the population wern't so indoctrinated by Xinhua, they would have overthrown the CCP ages ago.

Militarily? So what, with a billion+ population you'd expect a country to have an effecient military body.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What a stupid analogy. I don't know much about American history, but I know that the American Civil War was fought between Americans of the south, and Americans of the north. Britain didn't take part in the civil war. That's what makes it a civil war.

I think you're referring to the War of Independance.

Very sorry, i think i wrote that at around 4am.

 

[paper cup]

If Australia has conscription in preparation for a war with China, I would be certain to refuse in joining the army to fight them.

uh, why would consciption be introduced...
australia does not have the military capacity to challenge china anyway. the US would also hesitate in declaring war.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I think the US's war capabilities have been neutralised by their population... they have so much power (alot more than china), yet their hands are tied behind their back because of public opinion.

 

[paper cup]

I think the US's war capabilities have been neutralised by their population... they have so much power (alot more than china), yet their hands are tied behind their back because of public opinion.

and think of the mess they've created when they've tried to go in with their morals and democratic 'standards' in the past.

 

[paper cup]

Btw, http://au.news.yahoo.com/041222/3/saeh.html



What should I do? Laugh at the Chinese rebel's stupidity?

no, I'm going to laugh at yours.

 

[berry580]

Yes but they are still love to claim to be a developing country

You don't need to roll your eyes. Yes they ARE a developing country, yet, in aggregate terms they're still superior to many.

True, China's rapid economic growth in the past half century is incredible, however it has done little in improving the quality of life of the Chinese people. In recent times, a vibrant middle class has emerged but this is a very small percentage of the population, the great deal of Chinese living in terrible conditions in the cities or the provinces. Massive unemployment, poor social security and poor services all prevail in China today. Those that are employed often work for a pittance.

Just what do you mean by a political major power? I suppose the CCP has allowed China to hold strength on the international level, but thats it. The poeple are unhappy. They're not even allowed to practise ancient Chinese customs. Surely a chinese-australian zealot like yourself cannot support a political party that bans age-old Chinese traditions. Look at the falun gong for example, a harmless religious sect that is brutally supressed by the CCP.

The CCP is a tyrannical political party and relies solely on the supression of individual thought to hold power. If the population wern't so indoctrinated by Xinhua, they would have overthrown the CCP ages ago.

Militarily? So what, with a billion+ population you'd expect a country to have an effecient military body.

The PRC has a large population. If they have social welfare like how Australia has, they'll go bankrupt in no time (although apparent seem to be 'very' rich).
So there's really no comparison.

They have a permanent seat in the UN, what makes you think they're 'not' a major political power? You know how much economic influence they have? That also fuel's their level of political importance. (e.g If you don't do what I want to do to, I'll not buy this not buy that, etc)

Not allow Chinese to practice ancient custom?
I hope you're not talking about that 'Fa Lung Gong' (some jack like that), because that is by no means 'ancient' or anything 'traditional'. Instead, that fucked up organisation teach's their 'advanced student' to not see a doctor when they're sick, etc because they've practiced that 'whatever Gong', yet the Americans supports them.

So what? That's a good way in putting them down.

uh, why would consciption be introduced...
australia does not have the military capacity to challenge china anyway. the US would also hesitate in declaring war.

You know, this world ain't always logical. Even the stupidest thing you CAN'T think of can happen.
(e.g Fight for Peace) <-- Nice oxymoron (Please refer to my sig. accordingly)

I think the US's war capabilities have been neutralised by their population... they have so much power (alot more than china), yet their hands are tied behind their back because of public opinion.

Neutralised?
Does that mean the Americans supported the Iraq invasion?
In that case, I guess America deserves to be nuked.

no, I'm going to laugh at yours.

It's good that you can laugh at something non-existent.

 

[paper cup]

someone mentioned earlier that this argument is of no relevance to those who are not taiwanese or chinese (mainland) - I seek to differ.
An ancient chinese proverb - something something zhe mi, pang guang zhe qing (sorry my chinese proverb knowledge isn't all that crash hot) - those involved are confused, the bystanders are clear (on the issues). I think especially hua qiao, overseas chinese, are put in the position where they can view the situation with relatively objectiveness whereas people in the thick of it are blinded by the intensity of it.
I haven't read much of this thread, but just tying in with the last few posts - China is a developing country, the CCP claims it is in the chu ji jie duan of socialism - the developing stage, the incomplete and thus imperfect stage. As for the reforms having done nothing for the people I also beg to differ - the imperfect stage of socialism remember? a portion - that is, those living in the main cities, Beijing SHanghai Guangzhou Tianjin etc. have attained xiao kang status - that is a reasonable standard of living. they are trying to fix things - it just takes time. the govt wants to attain mid developed nation status by about 2050. I suggest that some people on the board research the policies in greater detail, especially the san bu zou policy - three steps forward, I don't recall exactly I think it was to ensure wen bao wen ti (warmth and food problem) is solved by 1980 which has been achieved, basic xiao kang by 2000-ish, which has also been achieved, and the mid developed nation status by 2050 - sorry my translation is a bit rustic.

 

[Phanatical]

I think we were saying (rightfully so) that this argument has no bearing on non-Chinese. It has all the relevance in the world to Chinese people, whether we're born and/or live In the Motherland, or throughout the world.

 

[Armani]

Yet whether or not the so called 'debate' on Taiwan's independence concerns those not of Chinese descent is irrelevant as the consequences of any action taken will still influence the world regardless, and for this reason people not of Chinese descent should have a say.

 

[Phanatical]

Oh, they can have a say. Just that that say is worthless, since they do not understand that maintaining the Middle Kingdom as a unified nation is extremely high on the priorities of every sane Chinese throughout the world.

Non-Chinese people can not understand the Chinese mentality, and are confused by our determination to achieve certain goals which seem meaningless to them. In Europe, nations and borders keep changing. But for China, it has always been one country. Even when split into different kingdoms, the borders of what was literally considered "The World" remained relatively constant with that of the modern China.

There is also a greater emphasis on "family" than that of European society, and this difference is compounded further by the fact that "family" means different things to the Chinese than it does to the Europeans. Chinese society has always been built on a familial structure - the Emperor (Son of Heaven) is the Father of the nation, whose duty it is to protect the welfare of His children (the People). So when there is a rift in this family, everybody works to repair it. There is a rift between Taiwan province and the rest of China, and it is not just our desire, but our duty to our Family and our Culture, to repair it.

So yes. Outsiders may have their opinion. But ultimately, in most cases they will have Uninformed opinions, as many of them cannot place themselves in the Chinese mindset.

 

[Xayma]

It has only been a unified nation since the late 1600's. Not really anything special there. Considering they lost it again in 1895.

 

[berry580]

"An ancient chinese proverb - something something zhe mi, pang guang zhe qing (sorry my chinese proverb knowledge isn't all that crash hot) - those involved are confused, the bystanders are clear (on the issues)."

It's true in a way, outsiders are so clear that they take advantage of their position and most of all, take advantage of the Chinese just like how half the world did from the late 1800's through to this last second.

You know if we can rely on foreigners, then we can rely on a tiger to take care of all our babies.

 

[Phanatical]

Chinese have suffered a lot at the hands of the Europeans, and the Japanese over the last few hundred years. This is coming to an end, as China once again reasserts its rightful place as the dominant nation and dominant culture of humanity.

I don't know where Xayma gets his figures from, but China was Unified under a single Emperor in 220BCE, and was divided among three kingdoms since 2200BCE.

 

[Xayma]

Well after it was claimed by the dutch it wasnt until the late 1600's that China begun administrating Taiwan. It became a province in the late 1800's before being taken by the Japanese in 1895.

Rightful place? Dominant nation? Being isolated from the European countries doesn't make you dominant just because you weren't invaded.

 

[berry580]

It has only been a unified nation since the late 1600's. Not really anything special there. Considering they lost it again in 1895.

Most of current China has been unified in Qin Dynasty (221 BC - 206 BC), although it was soon divided again, but work has constantly been made to reunify China, and even now we still are. But it's just that foreigners are doing all sorts of dirty things to prevent this.