TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE: Unites States & China....? (2 Viewers)

[berry580]

Oh wow that's a really good comment... i disagree with isreals stance on the palestinians and the race thing was just a stupid comment i'm not even gunna bother on that topic...

LOL. Ok, the bashing part was meant to be a joke, but I'm very sure you get my point.

Stop living in the past, most modern taiwanese separatists want their own nation.. they don't want ur mainland china.

It doesn't matter what they want. Although it doesn't seem like they want to take over mainland China like how the KMT once wanted, but this all comes back to the fact that they CAN'T (i.e too weak).

The point is:- Taiwan IS part of China (regardless what government is in power), and making another country out of that land is equivalent to starting a civil war again.

wtf? So you expect america and uk to re-unite soon? That's a real dodgy answer to the question.. but i think you did answer it, you don't care about what would happen to the taiwanese people at all. How can you judge america for their actions in iraq when you're willing to support such a slaugher on people who you yourself consider your brothers, sisters? No american political party would missile other americans...

The point is:- I doesn't matter what I want, if a country isn't united, war would break out sooner or later (people they just don't get alone), and the solution to true peace may cost some lives, but that's how things work. (Like the American Civil war, but thanks to the Americans, they've effectively lengthened the Chinese Civil War)

Your not even playing this debate by your own rules... first you say the standards set by the commonwealth etc don't matter now you're saying that americans standards matter...

Ok, how about look at it this way.

Did you see the Chinese supporting one of the American side during their civil war?
No.
Did you see the Chinese helping the Palestinians when the is Israelis massacring them backed by the Americans?
No.
So why should the Americans intervene in the Chinese Civil war?
You know, there's no moral in international affairs, and it doesn't work logically in how the 'moral' value goes. That's the fact, and if you can't accept it, then find a hole and cry in it.

Berry my problem with you.. is that you're willing to kill your own brothers and sisters, destroy one of what would be china's greatest provinces, all over something that happened 50 years ago...

The aim isn't to kill them, but to reunite China (the PRC and ROC).
It may cost some lives one off, but that would save innumerable lives of our future generation as they don't have to face the risk of a civil war again.

It's just how things work, it's exactly the same as the American civil war, but for the Chinese, the only difference is that, there are some @$$holes in the way and don't let them finish the war.
Just imagine, if the Chinese intervened in the American Civil war and don't let them finish it (by helping the weaker side), guess what America would be like right now?
War risking to break out anytime. Tension between the two government, probably just like North & South Korea right now.
Do you think the Americans (the side not being help) would like the Chinese? (But it not like they like Chinese now anyway)

And now the position has only been switched, so do you think the Chinese (exclude the Chinese traitors) would like the Americans?

 

[Phanatical]

Very well argued, berry580

 

[Christine Lo]

i didnt evn know taiwan wasnt independant..........shows how much i keep up with current affairs.......

Really!so Did China just declare independence to Taiwan? :uhhuh:

 

[Xayma]

So why should the Americans intervene in the Chinese Civil war?

As one side wants their help. Civil wars aren't fought just between two sides. Vietnam, the American civil war, Korean war all had outside forces.

And Chinese aren't any different, during the Tai-Ping Rebellion both sides had foreign help. The then ruling Chinese Imperial side had Americas help, while the rebels had British and French help.

Even by clearly supporting one side through trade embargo's or allowing greater access for one side to military purchases can change the balance.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I'd also like to point out that taiwanese presidents have often said that taiwan is an independant nation.... China has never moved in to stop them... why do they have to wait for this 'official' declaration of independence?

 

[Xayma]

It is more international recognisation of the independance of Taiwan. Also so that they probably have protection from China in case of war from the UN.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

IF they officially declare independance.. will that mean that international bodies will recognise them as an independant state?

The way i see it is.. in a possible war, china would totally crush taiwan, there would be street fighting and such from the taiwanese separatist troops and it would be a very bloody war.
The UN would condem china, america would condem them, and they would have trade embargos placed upon them..

This would subside after around 3 years or so as people decide they value chinas goods more than they value their moral stance.

It's a big risk for china.. this war could push back their economic growth, military capability, etc 5 or so years.

 

[Xayma]

Well the main reason I think is that the declaration of independence (officaly) is one of the automatic triggers for war with China.

Hence they want international support so they don't get crushed.

 

[Phanatical]

China is one of the few countries in the world that could survive being totally cut off from the rest of the world. Our markets rely on trade, and embargos would hurt us terribly, but China remains essentially self-reliant.

 

[berry580]

As one side wants their help. Civil wars aren't fought just between two sides. Vietnam, the American civil war, Korean war all had outside forces.

And Chinese aren't any different, during the Tai-Ping Rebellion both sides had foreign help. The then ruling Chinese Imperial side had Americas help, while the rebels had British and French help.

Even by clearly supporting one side through trade embargo's or allowing greater access for one side to military purchases can change the balance.

Yes, you've made load of points, and the conclusion is- "so THEIR civil war would last longer and that would benefit others (i.e US selling weapons and make money money, and they also don't need to pay for the rubbish dump fees) only."

I'd also like to point out that taiwanese presidents have often said that taiwan is an independant nation.... China has never moved in to stop them... why do they have to wait for this 'official' declaration of independence?

I would also like to point out that UN officals, US officials, British officials, German officials, French officials, (most, if not all of) European officials, and the list goes on.... of internationally significant politicians often saying that Taiwan IS part of China and they support the ONE CHINA POLICY. I would also like to point the fact that there is a Chinese province called Taiwan, but not a country called 'Taiwan.' Atleast politically to most internationally significant countries in the world.

It is more international recognisation of the independance of Taiwan. Also so that they probably have protection from China in case of war from the UN.

LOL.
Yeah, that 'almost' made sense.
Please ask any politician in the Australia- "Is there a country in the world currently called 'Taiwan'?"
I can pretty much guarantee you the answer WILL be 'no'. If their answer is 'yes,' I would like to heard them say that officially to the PRC officials and see what would happen to the Australian economy the next day if not the next hour.

IF they officially declare independance.. will that mean that international bodies will recognise them as an independant state?

The way i see it is.. in a possible war, china would totally crush taiwan, there would be street fighting and such from the taiwanese separatist troops and it would be a very bloody war.
The UN would condem china, america would condem them, and they would have trade embargos placed upon them..

This would subside after around 3 years or so as people decide they value chinas goods more than they value their moral stance.

It's a big risk for china.. this war could push back their economic growth, military capability, etc 5 or so years.

UN condem China? HAHAHAHA
The UN doesn't recognise Taiwan, what makes you think they'll condem China for kill the Chinese rebels? (i.e Russian kill Chechens)

As for the US, if they condem China, China can just trade with Europe and other countries (under the WTO), and the US is also basically condeming themselves as the US depends every much on Chinese commodities, which would force up prices, and hence inflation would sky rocket, and that current US government would be finished in the next US election.

Well the main reason I think is that the declaration of independence (officaly) is one of the automatic triggers for war with China.

Support? What advantages have to offer to others? Cock sucking?
Corz besides that, the mainlanders have everything better to offer, and there's no reason in why other country would support them.

Just look at the arms purchase, besides the US, who the f--- dares oppose the PRC officially and sell them weapons?
The French did it once by selling a few La Fayettes to the Taiwanese, and the PRC snapped by cancelling some project with them, and the French is now a good boy.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

China can't survive without the US just as the US can't survive without japan... I think you're giving the chinese economy alot more credit than it deserves, it is a very fragile economy.. unlike the economy of australia.

The taiwanese economy is a very strong centrist economy.. the taiwanese people if they merged with china would find that their real wages would go down dramatically.

China remains self reliant? Are u nuts? They have over a billion people and at their rate of growth they simply don't HAVE enough steel/raw materials/energy to maintain their nation. China is relying on the rest of the world as much as any other country.

 

[LMF^^]

LoL therez an actual thread on thiz in BOS...?

Ah why do they alwayz discuss politicz, we all know it endz up nowhere.

And no, warz not good fo anyone, but President Chen should really shut himself up befo China really gets pissed.

 

[Phanatical]

It's because the people who post in these forums ARE going to be the politicians of the future. I certainly believe I will be in politics in some sort of capacity, as I have a lot of beliefs which I feel I must act upon, and I'm sure that there are others here who will feel the same way.

 

[berry580]

China can't survive without the US just as the US can't survive without japan... I think you're giving the chinese economy alot more credit than it deserves, it is a very fragile economy.. unlike the economy of australia.

The taiwanese economy is a very strong centrist economy.. the taiwanese people if they merged with china would find that their real wages would go down dramatically.

China remains self reliant? Are u nuts? They have over a billion people and at their rate of growth they simply don't HAVE enough steel/raw materials/energy to maintain their nation. China is relying on the rest of the world as much as any other country.

Oh.... you mean China's economy is 'insignificant'? (=_=" You're so smart, and you go back to sleep now. )
I don't know much about America in detail, but in Australia, it's rather difficult to find something that's not 'made in China'. Just imagine everything that you see is 'made in China' gone, and replaced by products 25% more expensive (which maybe even be an understatement when we apply that to electrics). Guess what happens to inflation? And guess what citizens would want to do to the government in power?

LOL !!
Unlike Australia's economy? HAHAHA!!
Mate, the Australian economy is not sustainable by ALL means in the long run.
Australia has a small economy, hence it struggles to produce manufactured goods to economies of scale. Currently, Australia greatly depends on its natural resources, and once they deplete, the Australian living standard would by no means be sustainable.

It's true China has great reliant on imported raw materials, but whoever they rely on natural resources, they're not replying on America's for sure atleast in the forseeable future. That's why China needs to Australia. But if Australia backs off, they still have Russia.

Taiwanese'ds real wage go down if they imerge with mainland China. What has that got anything to what we're talking about?
Does it even seem like it'll matter what the Taiwanese finds? Who the f--- gives a sh-t about them?
For a start, the UN doesn't gives a sh-t, the Americans doesn't gives a sh-t, most of the Europeans doesn't gives a sh-t, the Russians certainly wouldn't give a sh-t, so wouldn't the Japanese (if they all want access to the giant market and MAKE MONEY. All of the major world powers is indifferent to the Taiwanese, hence the point is- we're almost to the point where no one gives a sh-t about the Taiwanese.

END.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Neither is the chinese economy as their middle class real wages increase...There goes their economy of scale, everyone starts moving their factories to africa (once it's a little more stable and there's solid enough infrastructure).

Australia is the 17th largest economy in the world by GDP, considering we have the 53rd largest population... we're not doing that bad. Perhaps the word u were looking for was a small 'population'?

You obviously would rather live in china, where people are living off low living standards compared with western capitalist economies, earning barely enough to make a living.

China has high unemployment, rural poverty, high government debt and an insolvent banking sector.

 

[berry580]

Neither is the chinese economy as their middle class real wages increase...There goes their economy of scale, everyone starts moving their factories to africa (once it's a little more stable and there's solid enough infrastructure).

Australia is the 17th largest economy in the world by GDP, considering we have the 53rd largest population... we're not doing that bad. Perhaps the word u were looking for was a small 'population'?

You obviously would rather live in china, where people are living off low living standards compared with western capitalist economies, earning barely enough to make a living.

China has high unemployment, rural poverty, high government debt and an insolvent banking sector.

They have just grew over US$1000 GDP per capita in recent years, so they still have a long way to go compared to other developed countries.
What has kept the Chinese economy going is not only low wages, but also careful economic plans, a relatively stable government, etc. This is something the Africans can't provide to attract FDI's.

It is ranked so high mainly because of raw material exports. If you have read what I wrote you would of realised. Australia has a small population AND a small economy "(i.e Small demand), but it has high level of raw material exports which have kept the economy going, they're still running a large CAD. If the raw material runs out, so would Australian's living standards.

It doesn't matter where I want to live as this is irrelvant to the topic.

China do have a relatively high level of unemployment, mainly structural employment, and that is something which is inevitable considering their situation in past decades (embargo, etc). Poverty is a relatively term, and that is something time would heal silently (i.e Investments from rich Chinese cities and develop the area).

Chinese government has high debt?!! =_="
Can any economics student answer this lost 'less intelligent' person?

You know ut of ALL emerging economies, China has the LOWEST external debt out of the lot. With a low debt to GPD level of 15%, which is nothing compared to Brazil's 50% (about).

You know, if you don't know something, you can always ask (or atleast do some research!!!). So please don't make fun of yourself. =_="
(I can't believe I can find someone like this under Australia's sophisticated education system)

 

[Xayma]

I would also like to point out that UN officals, US officials, ... of internationally significant politicians often saying that Taiwan IS part of China and they support the ONE CHINA POLICY.

Although there has been the occasional mention, the US officials do not support any action of one china policy, or oppose it. At least publicly, when it has been said it has been quickly amended.

I don't know much about America in detail, but in Australia, it's rather difficult to find something that's not 'made in China'. Just imagine everything that you see is 'made in China' gone, and replaced by products 25% more expensive (which maybe even be an understatement when we apply that to electrics). Guess what happens to inflation? And guess what citizens would want to do to the government in power?

Actually alot of stuff I see isn't made in China, a fair bit is Made in Taiwan, Made in Malaysia or Made in Indonesia.

China saying they rule Taiwan is similar to the Germans saying they rule Sicily. China invaded Taiwan in much the same way as the Germans invaded Sicily.

You know what, you're right Taiwan should belong to the Chinese, as after all it isn't right to allow people who want a choice of being able to vote for their government to be allowed to that.

If China allows a democracy and allows the Taiwanese government to run for election against the current ruling party in a fair way then maybe I could go for the unification.

 

[berry580]

Although there has been the occasional mention, the US officials do not support any action of one china policy, or oppose it. At least publicly, when it has been said it has been quickly amended.

It's a fact that they do not support any action of the One China policy (e.g Reunifiction by through military intervention). At one stage and even till this last second, the US has made it clear that if Taiwan declares independence, the US will not support Taiwan in any way (which meant they won't join the war as expected by Chen), so Chen at one stage said he won't go towards independence after the election to the PRC government, but now he's on it again, although not a as obvious as before.

To be serious, Chen's stance is quite insignificant. I personally do believe war is quite inevitable sooner or later. As part of the independence program (unoffically), future Taiwan generation would probably be taught that- 'Taiwan isn't part of China, and it never was and a load of crap' which'll then make them believe independence is 'right' and this gradually increase the tension between the two until this delicate balance snaps.
But by the looks of the situation, it'll probably be later. But not that I want the Chinese Civil war to continue on from 1949.

 

[berry580]

Actually alot of stuff I see isn't made in China, a fair bit is Made in Taiwan, Made in Malaysia or Made in Indonesia.

But overall, they're mainly made in China (atleast a signifcant proportion is), and that is enough affect the Australian economy noticably.

China saying they rule Taiwan is similar to the Germans saying they rule Sicily. China invaded Taiwan in much the same way as the Germans invaded Sicily.

Chinese had long ago settled in Taiwan, I don't think their are German settlers (a signifixant level) on Sicily centuries ago.

You know what, you're right Taiwan should belong to the Chinese, as after all it isn't right to allow people who want a choice of being able to vote for their government to be allowed to that.

If China allows a democracy and allows the Taiwanese government to run for election against the current ruling party in a fair way then maybe I could go for the unification.

You know,THAT is pushing it.

You sarcasm there makes sense, and does have a point. It's a fact that ultimately by theory, a democratic political system would work best. But not all theory is practical.

The PRC is currently making giant leaps to reform their governing system for the better. And that is enough to give us the reason in why the Chinese should support this government. They're not perfect, but they're working towards it.

In this world, there's no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong', your push of western view simply shows your arrogance.
Do you believe Taiwan's or any other western democratic government are truly corruption free and their actions are ice clear? Corz if that's what you think, then keep it that way, as I wouldn't want the truth to make you leak.

 

[Xayma]

Traditionally democratic governments have been less corupt then the socialists. I have a feeling that eventually the current Chinese government will turn democratic within our lifetimes, purely as they are becoming less and less socialist. Or they could keep their own party system, but due to the internet etc they don't have the same control as they use to have, the limited site access is routinely bypassed.

The Dutch settled on Taiwan first Killing a fair few native Taiwanese first. Before the Chinese took over.

I wasn't saying that the USA would support Taiwan, more that they have no stance on the issue. And do not advocate the military take over of Taiwan although they will most likely do nothing to stop it.