The Beijing Olympics (2 Viewers)

[AlleyCat]

Salchow i dont even know what to say. your ignorance is astonishing...

 

[A High Way Man]

llove it or leave it

i wanna explode when i hear dis

 

[abbeyroad]

does it really matter if people decide to be vocal about an issue of importance later on?
this petty mindset is infuriating, because education about current events should be constant and expanding. so what if people didnt care about the issue 8 years ago. the important thing is that they care now.
my boyfriend has been campaigning for tibet for 8 years, i have been campaigning (actively) for 6 months. but our outrage at the situation and willingness to change things are equal.

Because the world chooses not to care. The world had choosen to turn a blind eye on China's human rights abuse. It always has. After the Olympics, everyone would magically forget about the whole debacle as if it was a mere dream.

you have spectacularly missed the point.

you dont need to go to a country to know that suffering happens there. i've been to china, and the only things i saw were officially sanctioned and double-checked tourist destinations, even though i wanted to see other sights as well. so even people who go to china never see the real china.

The adventurous ones do. No one would stop you if you were travelling independently.

I haven't "spectacularly missed the point." Do you have any idea what disaster Tibet independence would bring to China?

For Tibet to be free.

See my earlier post:

Throughout the countless empires that had ruled China for hundreds of years, Tibet has always been part of China. You can no more separate Tibet from China than you can any other province, as China is made up of different kingdoms from ages past. Do you have any idea what would happen if Tibet gained independence? If Tibet had gained independence from China, any other province can follow suit.

No Chinese would want to see Tibet gain independence. Do you understand why the Chinese would never let it happen? Here's the deal with you "Free Tibet" advocates; you want Tibet to be free, yet you do not understand the big picture, you can only see what the Tibet separatists have been feeding you. Your cause is a lost one. The only way for Tibet to be "free" is if China were to become a democratic federation. You can not free Tibet without freeing China.

Do religious representatives on government committees make up for aggressive state interventions in the teachings and practices of monasteries?
Are you aware that many monasteries have party reps who monitor the teachings of the Lamas?
Are you also aware that the com party insists on selecting many reincarnate Lamas, contrary to Tibetan religious traditions?
are you also aware that people have been imprisoned for possessing material relating to the Dalai Lama, including photos and dvds?
Religious freedom?
They became exiles because many of them were political prisoners and escaped due to oppression. They are complaining because their friends, family and countrymen are being killed, tortured and denied freedom.

The oppression suffered by the Tibetans is not a unique one. The 1.2 billion Chinese all share the same fate under the totalitarian Communist regime. There are "party representatives" in every school and every state owned entity in the rest of China. The Chinese are imprisoned for speaking out against the widespread corruption of officials. They are imprisoned for possessing material relating to democracy. Their liberty is trampled by the Communist everyday. They have no freedom of speech, no freedom of the press, no freedom from fear. Millions of Chinese are unlawfully imprisoned and denied the rights of due process on a daily basis. You can't say "Free Tibet" while ignoring the sufferings of the other Chinese. You can't say "Free Tibet" while China is not free. You can't say "Free Tibet", because 1.2 billion Chinese themselves have not even their most basic rights respected. Did you think that the Chinese were cheering when they heard the news? Did you think that the Chinese can vote on the fate of the Tibetans? What makes the sufferings of the Tibetans more pressing than the sufferings of 1.2 billion Chinese? Do Tibetan lives worth more? Are the Chinese not worthy of your attention? The oppresion is suffered by all, Chinese and Tibetans alike.

i've actually spoken to many people, both pro Chinese and pro Tibetan. I'm a journalism student and a reasonably intelligent person, so I'd like to think i can tell which accounts are factual based on reliable evidence and which are based on lies and propaganda.

If you are as intelligent as you say you are. Then you'll realised you're fighting for a lost cause. The real question you should be asking is not "Is Tibet free?” The real question you should be asking is "Is China free?”

 

[Gay Captain]

The world had choosen to turn a blind eye on China's human rights abuse.

Especially China.

 

[abbeyroad]

What a whole lot of crazy. Olympics should be held in Wollongong.

Or better yet, Antarctica.

 

[abbeyroad]

Especially China.

Not just China, the United States also.

 

[AlleyCat]

Because the world chooses not to care. The world had choosen to turn a blind eye on China's human rights abuse. It always has. After the Olympics, everyone would magically forget about the whole debacle as if it was a mere dream.


The adventurous ones do. No one would stop you if you were travelling independently.

I haven't "spectacularly missed the point." Do you have any idea what disaster Tibet independence would bring to China?


See my earlier post:
No Chinese would want to see Tibet gain independence. Do you understand why the Chinese would never let it happen? Here's the deal with you "Free Tibet" advocates; you want Tibet to be free, yet you do not understand the big picture, you can only see what the Tibet separatists have been feeding you. Your cause is a lost one. The only way for Tibet to be "free" is if China were to become a democratic federation. You can not free Tibet without freeing China.

The oppression suffered by the Tibetans is not a unique one. The 1.2 billion Chinese all share the same fate under the totalitarian Communist regime. There are "party representatives" in every school and every state owned entity in the rest of China. The Chinese are imprisoned for speaking out against the widespread corruption of officials. They are imprisoned for possessing material relating to democracy. Their liberty is trampled by the Communist everyday. They have no freedom of speech, no freedom of the press, no freedom from fear. Millions of Chinese are unlawfully imprisoned and denied the rights of due process on a daily basis. You can't say "Free Tibet" while ignoring the sufferings of the other Chinese. You can't say "Free Tibet" while China is not free. You can't say "Free Tibet", because 1.2 billion Chinese themselves have not even their most basic rights respected. Did you think that the Chinese were cheering when they heard the news? Did you think that the Chinese can vote on the fate of the Tibetans? What makes the sufferings of the Tibetans more pressing than the sufferings of 1.2 billion Chinese? Do Tibetan lives worth more? Are the Chinese not worthy of your attention? The oppresion is suffered by all, Chinese and Tibetans alike.

If you are as intelligent as you say you are. Then you'll realised you're fighting for a lost cause. The real question you should be asking is not "Is Tibet free?” The real question you should be asking is "Is China free?”

FREE CHINA! FREE TIBET!

free them all. i'm not discriminating against the chinese, simply pointing out that tibetans want to be free to express themselves without being imprisoned and killed.

you make some excellent points, but freeing tibet and freeing china arent mutually exclusive causes.

the thing is, as far as i have seen, the culture of chinese people includes an effort to 'save face', so they take an insult on the chinese government as an insult on chinese people. no one is complaining about the actions of chinese people, only their government. but they get their back up about the whole issue and steadfastly say they dont want anything to change, including their own oppressed state.

 

[Slidey]

Not just China, the United States also.

But especially China.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

But especially the United States.

EDIT: Crap

 

[abbeyroad]

FREE CHINA! FREE TIBET!

free them all. i'm not discriminating against the chinese, simply pointing out that tibetans want to be free to express themselves without being imprisoned and killed.

The Tibetans will be free under a democratic federation. They will be free to make laws, they will be free to govern themselves, they will be free from prosecution. I can almost see the day when China adopts democracy. It will be a great day for freedom loving people around the world indeed.

the thing is, as far as i have seen, the culture of chinese people includes an effort to 'save face', so they take an insult on the chinese government as an insult on chinese people. no one is complaining about the actions of chinese people, only their government. but they get their back up about the whole issue and steadfastly say they dont want anything to change, including their own oppressed state.

Those "Chinese" people you've seen are brainwashed idiotic "patriots" who know nothing about the atrocities committed by their own government on human rights. The real Chinese patriots are those who take distress in the sufferings of his fellow countrymen, and still stand committed even when his life is condemned. The real Chinese patriots are those defiant students who sat silent in Tiananmen Square demanding democracy in 1989. The real Chinese patriots are those who died in that massacre as free men. The patriot is the Tank Man. They are not the brainwashed idiots you saw.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Olympics are supposed to be a celebreation, they're supposed to be about peace and harmony between nations - and of course sport.

Greek city states whom were at war with each other layed down their arms to compete peacefully against one another in the ancient Olympics.


It's disgusting to think that people are shoving their own political agendas upon the Olympics. Take your politics elsewhere, it does not belong with the Olympics, nor is it relevant to it.

 

[banco55]

Olympics are supposed to be a celebreation, they're supposed to be about peace and harmony between nations - and of course sport.

Greek city states whom were at war with each other layed down their arms to compete peacefully against one another in the ancient Olympics.


It's disgusting to think that people are shoving their own political agendas upon the Olympics. Take your politics elsewhere, it does not belong with the Olympics, nor is it relevant to it.

The modern olympics are inherently political. Do you really think Beijing considers the Olympics to be non-political?

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

And since when was sport less important than human rights? :rofl:

 

[zstar]

Why do human rights always get dragged into this?

Tibet being a part of China has nothing to do with human rights. It has to do with historical fact.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

What exactly are you fighting for?
The Dalai himself isn't calling for independence, merely for autonomy under HIS rule. Tibet is already an autonomous region with a secular Tibetan head of government. What's the benefit of installing an aristocratic hereditary ruler who travels around the world everyday, stays in five star hotels and gives lectures on meditation?

If you're campaigning to end "oppression", you're gravely mistaken. Tibet is one of the only places in the world where monks are on the government (yes the PRC govt) payroll. So rather than oppressing religion, PRC is actually actively promoting it. Obviously, there are other minority "benefits", for instance tibetans are exempted from the one-child policy, and are the benefactors of affirmative action such as lower tertiary entry marks.

It also seems to me that accounts of oppression mainly come from the tibetan "exiles" living overseas. Obviously the incumbent ruling class before the chinese modernisation, given that they had lost many of their ruling class privileges (such as owning slaves), are likely to complain about the PRC rule.

I don't doubt that you have good intentions for supporting the "cause". I just feel that you're selectively taking certain allegations as facts and turning a blind eye on the real facts.

I wonder why tens of thousands of Tibetans left rich and affluent Chinese controlled tibet to become refugee in 3rd world countries like India

 

[Dyne]

What exactly are you fighting for?
The Dalai himself isn't calling for independence, merely for autonomy under HIS rule. Tibet is already an autonomous region with a secular Tibetan head of government. What's the benefit of installing an aristocratic hereditary ruler who travels around the world everyday, stays in five star hotels and gives lectures on meditation?

If you're campaigning to end "oppression", you're gravely mistaken. Tibet is one of the only places in the world where monks are on the government (yes the PRC govt) payroll. So rather than oppressing religion, PRC is actually actively promoting it. Obviously, there are other minority "benefits", for instance tibetans are exempted from the one-child policy, and are the benefactors of affirmative action such as lower tertiary entry marks.

It also seems to me that accounts of oppression mainly come from the tibetan "exiles" living overseas. Obviously the incumbent ruling class before the chinese modernisation, given that they had lost many of their ruling class privileges (such as owning slaves), are likely to complain about the PRC rule.

I don't doubt that you have good intentions for supporting the "cause". I just feel that you're selectively taking certain allegations as facts and turning a blind eye on the real facts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the five significant religions of China (as in Buddhism, Islam, Christianity and so forth) regulated by the Communist Party? I'm under the impression that having the Communist Party in such a supreme position of influence is a bad thing. I feel that it's fundamentally immoral for the state to have such a control of thought/message over the people.

Democracies represent the will of the majority and protect the minority. The benefits you've listed are hardly protections.

 

[Slidey]

Why do human rights always get dragged into this?

Tibet being a part of China has nothing to do with human rights. It has to do with historical fact.

Because China is abusing Tibetan rights to ensure that 'historical fact'.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

The modern olympics are inherently political. Do you really think Beijing considers the Olympics to be non-political?

Ideally, yes.

Olympics should not have anything to do with politics. It's meant to be about sport.

Who is getting hurt by all the protests? China? pfftt..
Sportsmen & women and the fans.

 

[abbeyroad]

Because China is abusing Tibetan rights to ensure that 'historical fact'.

No, it's because past Tibetan elites who lost their rights to own slaves under the Communist rule and a certain group of people who do not wish to see an united China are pushing to separate Tibet from China and are only using the Olympics to peddle their agenda. It's because people like you can not distinguish the difference between oppression aimed at an ethnic group and oppression aimed at the general populace. China's abuse of human rights dates back to the 50s, why raise the issue now?

 

[ari89]

China's abuse of human rights dates back to the 50s, why raise the issue now?

Yeah because it wasn't raised earlier (even though it was) it should never be raised. You missed your chance guys.