Does God Exist? (3 Viewers)

[firehose]

joujou + others are right. this thread has degenerated into something totally different from 'Does God Exist?' lol. made me lose all my energy to argue for the time being. I appreciated ur contribution acmilan. we'll discuss more about the REAL topic when these "others" finally get bored of posting here lol. I'm off to do Eco assignment... have fun.

 

[mr EaZy]

I think I've gotten through to you joujou_84, do you see the light..... The lights of the on-coming ford

lol, ive been read all your threads on fords and rally racing legends and im thinkin
mate, your pretty messed up

 

[mr EaZy]

mr EaZy, you have taken the Bible extracts you quoted out of context. When Jesus refers to the comforter He does not say the comforter will be human, He is in fact referring to the Holy Spirit

i hope i didnt offend anyone- like if i did quote out of context.
O and thanks for putting up the entire passage.
Just tell me, what bible did you get this from. my usual source is the RSV (Revised standard edition)

If you read the entire passages rather than quote one line, you will see why

ok, ill try mate
im going to assume im right, and use the passage to either criticize or support what ive said.

17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

i didnt understand this one.

"the world cannot receive "?

maybe ive got a flaw in my argument

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe

.

Ok, according to my sources. the Word Holy Ghost should in fact be Holy Spirit.
The Greek Word 'Pneuma' is a root word for 'spirit'. later editiions of the bible have changed this (like the RSV)

The word Comforter (which someone for some reason alluded to before i came along) comes from Paracletos which means 'advocate' or a 'kind and merciful friend' , but its been translated as Comforter. I wont argue with that, as the Master Jesus, did not speak Greek! Some Biblical scholars say that paracletos is a "corrupt reading" for periclytos which roughly means "the praised one" or "the one worthy of praise"

The word Muhammad/ Ahmad btw also means "the praised one"
so quoting Jou jou's quote from the quran:

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said:
"O Children of Israel!
I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you,
confirming the Law (which came) before me,
and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me,
whose name shall be Ahmad."

we know, Jesus was sent "to the lost sheep of Israel" and never converted a non-jew in his life.

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel

Jesus did confirm the "torah", or "the law"

Think not that I am come
To destroy the law, or the
Prophets: I am come not to
Destroy but to fulfil.

And the last section of Ass-saff ayah 6 can be perfectly realised if we interpret paracletos as periclytos. I.E comforter(a kind friend), as the praised one, Although both descriptions do fit the prophet of islam.


even if we do allude the comforter to the holy ghost or spirit , we find that the holy ghost was there both before and after Jesus was born!!

ok, ill give a few quotes, i know that Luke made a few allusions to it.

…and he (John the Baptist) shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb. Luke 1:15

…and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 1:41


…and the Holy Ghost was upon him(Simeon)
Luke 2:26

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus)
Luke 3:22

u can take ghost for spirit if you want.

if this is true than the comforter did come before Jesus left us.
and Jesus says "it is expedient for you that i go away, for if i go not away, the comforter will not come."

The coming of the Comforter is conditional on jesus leaving, and if the holy spirit had come, who else is there?

 

[joujou_84]

Wow this is still going! Stay strong non-believers.

Oh and just because of someones attacks on philosophy students on this thread, can't remember the name, somebody religious, I'm becoming a philosphy students. Buahahaha.

so what??.......

 

[mr EaZy]

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Ok this is what i quoted from. The coming of the comforter is conditional etc.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

.

The jews made Jesus' mission v.difficult. i think that's what's meant by:
'they believe not on me;'......

who is the prince of this world? ..Jesus?

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

i think ill talk about this later

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

to me , this is a description of a man, not a spirit. Perhaps, the spirit is that of a person? i read a biblical explanation which supports this view.

both Jesus and Muhammad (may god bestow peace upon them both) are supposed to speak that which they hear:

For i speak not from myself; but what the father that sent me, he hath given me the commandment, what i should say, and what i should speak. John 12:49

Nor does he say aught of his own desire

It is no less an inspiration sent down to him

he was taught by one might in power

O and ill again allude to the passage from the Psalms

And the book is delivered
To him that is not learned
Saying, Read this,
I pray thee:
And he saith, I AM NOT LEARNED!Isaiah 29:12

but he did recite, and Muhammad (may god's blessings +peace be upon him) did rely on Gabriel telling him what he needed to hear; whether it be revelations or just any answer to the questions raised.

so i conclude the same as i did before.
Jesus was leaving this world. He fortold the coming of someone similar to him in many respects. Some of the descriptions of this "comforter" are similar to what Jesus described himself, but they fit perfectly with the prophet of Islam.

In both quotations Jesus does not say that the comforter after Him will be like Himself as you alluded to

.


To me, this entire chapter is like Jesus is giving a farewell speech to his deciples and is giving them good advice about how he will ensure they are guided when he has gone!

And he said "Another". if he is going, and he says that something else will replace him....... let me hear your response to what ive said before, so that i can know what your not clear upon (as to what i have to say)

The Old Testament clearly prophecises about Jesus coming and His greatness and even details some events of His life

If you have studied typology you would be aware of the links between the old testament and Jesus

ok whats typology? its possible that the old testament prophesized the coming of the messiah, but does it say he was the last prophet?

from what i know, prophecies usually tell the signs of something. they dont have to be specific, but when you compare them with the actual event; the similarities are undeniable. thats my opinion, but is that what you're all trying to say about what the OT says about Jesus?

thats all for now.
take of it what you wish.
im not learned in the bible,
but i have read closely on this topic,
and i believe in what im saying;
im sure you all have your own beliefs and
i respect that.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

from what i know, prophecies usually tell the signs of something. they dont have to be specific, but when you compare them with the actual event; the similarities are undeniable

Response:
1. There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled:

-- i. Retrodiction. The "prophecy" can be written or modified after the events fulfilling it have already occurred.

-- ii. Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.

-- iii. Inevitability. The prophecy can predict something that is almost sure to happen, such as the collapse of a city. Since nothing lasts forever, the city is sure to fall someday. If it hasn't, just say that, according to prophecy, it will.

-- iv. Denial. One can claim that the fulfilling events occurred even if they haven't. Or, more commonly, one can forget that the prophecy was ever made.

There are no prophecies in the Bible that cannot easily fit into one or more of those categories.


2. In Biblical times, prophecies were not simply predictions. They were warnings of what could or would happen if things didn't change. They were meant to influence people's behavior. If the people heeded the prophecy, the events would not come to pass; Jonah 3 gives an example. A fulfilled prophecy was a failed prophecy, because it meant people didn't heed the warning.


3. The Bible also contains failed prophecies, in the sense that things God said would happen did not. [Skeptic's Annotated Bible n.d.] For example:
* Joshua said that God would, without fail, drive out the Jebusites and Canaanites, among others [Josh. 3:9-10]. But those tribes were not driven out [Josh. 15:63, 17:12-13].
* Isaiah 17:1-3 says Damascus will cease to be a city and be deserted forever, yet it is inhabited still.
* Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years [29:10-14], and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it [29:19-20]. Neither happened.


4. Other religions claim many fulfilled prophecies, too.


5. Divinity is not shown by miracles. The Bible itself says true prophecies may come elsewhere than from God [Deut. 13:1-3], as may other miracles [Ex. 7:22, Matt. 4:8]. Some people say that to focus on proofs is to miss the whole point of faith [John 20:29].

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source: talkorigins.org

 

[mr EaZy]

the thank you post

ok, thanks for that sonata
funny how your source happens to be a website on creationism/evolution.

O and thanks to Acmillan for putting up those chapters from the Book of St. John.
its not that i only read one or two lines from the bible, its just that i dont want to be accused of throwing in chunks of texts from the bible.


Thanks to Jou Jou for always being the first to respond to my posts

and thanks to everyone else who posted and those who interrupted this thread with the stuff on Fords (im a toyota fan!)

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O and what i am saying is not new.
i mean, i didnt make this stuff up~!!!

i know what christians have to say for the chapter- about the Holy spirit and all. i just follow other schools of thought who interpreted these verses in different ways based on biblical evidence.

 

[GirlGoneMad]

The old testament also tells us that SOME of jesus's deciples will live forever... (on earth).

Yes, that's true...

Can you believe in a paradise Earth?

 

[somechick]

mr EaZy, you have taken the Bible extracts you quoted out of context. When Jesus refers to the comforter He does not say the comforter will be human, He is in fact referring to the Holy Spirit

If you read the entire passages rather than quote one line, you will see why

John 14:15-31
The Promise of the Holy Spirit
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscar'i-ot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

John 16:5-15
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

In both quotations Jesus does not say that the comforter after Him will be like Himself as you alluded to.



Again, you are wrong about WHO the comforter is, read the entire passage and not just one line of it.



The Old Testament clearly prophecises about Jesus coming and His greatness and even details some events of His life

If you have studied typology you would be aware of the links between the old testament and Jesus

thanks for that post acmillian
Now cant you see how the descriptions given by Jesus( pbuh) fits Mohammed (pbuh) like a glove?
Why is it that some christians believe the Comforter to be the holy spirit when others think its Jesus himself and others thought it was John the baptist? why are you so divided? Can it be that the Bible is so vague in that sense?
When the people asked John the Baptist if he was the comforter (because he was after Jesus and before Mohammed) he said no im not. That rules him out. How can it be Jesus when Jesus is talking about ANOTHER person? And according to many Christians these days, it is the indescribable Holy Spirit. Can someone PLEASE explain to me what the Holy Spirit IS? Never mind that though, lets move on to the comforter.
Like mrEazy said, the closest original sayings of Jesus of the Comforter is the greek word Paracletos, which means a helper. But Jesus didn't speak Greek, so how can he say paracletos? What im getting at to put it simply, is that there's been some sort of addition here.
Anyway, Jesus said
"nevertheless, i tell you the truth:
It is expedient for you that i go
For if i go not away, the
Comforter will not come unto you;
but if i depart, i will send him unto you" John 16:7

Firstly, supposing the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, how can he not come BEFORE Jesus goes away? Obviously, since Mary was pregnated by the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost was there BEFORE Jesus, so it doesnt make sense if Jesus would say "if I NOT GO AWAY, the Comforter (Holy ghost to you) will NOT come unto you, but if I depart i will send him". (own emphasis)
Not only Mary's pregnation, but others were "filled with the holy ghost" such as Elizabeth (luke 1:41) and Zacharias (Luke 1:67). etc. The Holy Ghost was also WITH Jesus was he not? :"..'as my Father hath sent me, even so i send you' (disciples) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and saith unto them, RECIEVE YE THE HOLY GHOST" (John 20:21-22) (my emphasis)

These are your own extracts from above which I am replying to.
17: even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
--obviously no one can see or know Mohammed since he is not born? I dont understand the next bit tho-how can the Holy Spirit be with you if not performing a miracle?

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

----i read the whole paragraph and only halted once. The whole paragraph i must say, was written quite exquisitly. The part where i halted was "which is the Holy Ghost", because it does not keep with the rythym and literary style. "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost" Can you just imagine this: Jesus speaking so rythmically like that to his disciples, halting to remind them that the comforter is the holy ghost. sounds to me like "oh and by the way, to anyone who thought otherwise" ??????
Nevertheless, Jesus goes on to say that The Holy Ghost will bring all things to your remembrance. How will this be achieved? Since the coming of the Holy Ghost is a prophecy, how can a ghost/spirit teach us, bring things to our remembrance when you, the Christians do not have any clarity as to what/who it is? Not John, Not Jesus. A Holy Ghost?
Mohammed (pbuh) brought things into remembrance-precisely what Jesus said-his own teachings, "whatsoever i have said unto you". "He shall teach you all things"-did he not make the Arab world from its barrens and ruins a whole empire? The Arab world pre-mohammed to put it plainly, was nothing.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

---Mohammed was highly regarded in his time of lies and deciet as a spirit of truth. There are many tales of this, which are irrelevant now so to proceed: Mohammed heared from the Angel Gabriel the Word of Allah and the memorised, and orated>"that shall he speak" and the scribes wrote what he said. He HEARED> "whatsoever he shall hear". THIS IS IN YOUR OWN BIBLE!!!!

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Prince! how can the Holy Spirit be a prince? Isnt the Holy Trinitiy based on the concept that ALL three are equal in position/power etc. EQUAL. And yet The Holy Ghost/Spirit is (as you believe, the comforter) mentioned a prince, a physical being. "the prince of this world cometh".
Please dont take this as offensive in any way. It is meant to be an explanation.

 

[joujou_84]

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamrights.htm

i dont like this woman. i hope she dies a slow and painful death for acting like she knows wat islam is about. Great thats all we need now... a bunch of shits who think theyve mastered it all.

 

[katie_tully]

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamrights.htm

i dont like this woman. i hope she dies a slow and painful death for acting like she knows wat islam is about. Great thats all we need now... a bunch of shits who think theyve mastered it all.

Which part of this article is wrong? From what I gather, it's quite correct.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are patriarchal, monotheistic religions and are bound by one thing - their contempt of women!

When confronted with the issue of women's plight in Muslim countries, Muslim apologists insist that their religion has been misunderstood and that Islam actually grants women certain rights. They blame tradition and tribal societies for the low status and oppression of women.

Since Islam exerts absolute power over every aspect of Muslim society, from diet to relations between the sexes, why has it failed in fourteen centuries of its existence, to eradicate injustices against half of its adherents?

Which part of that is incorrect? I know people who have gone to the Middle East, and have seen the treatment of women. We're all aware of the brutal acts committed against women in Muslim countries. The religion itself should not be entirely to blame, just the people who practice it to the extreme...But that's exactly what she's saying.

Turkey's women are the most liberated in the Muslim world. This was achieved not through Islamic reformation but through secularisation established by the founder of the modern Turkish republic Kemal Ataturk. Kemal was the product of secular education and had always admired Western culture. He pursued a program of westernisation that affected all aspects of Turkish life - women were granted the vote and veiling was prohibited. If the Turkish system were to collapse and replaced by an Islamic theocracy we can be certain that women's progress will be reversed and women will be at the mercy of the mullahs. In countries where there has been a raise in fundamentalism and reversal to strict religious law such as Pakistan, Sudan and Afghanistan women are targeted with vengeance and brutality.

Which is exactly the stance alot of Muslims take. The insurgencies in Iraq have alot to do with the dejection of Westernisation in Muslim nations. Democracy is seen as an imposition by Westerners, which is why extremists are so heavily opposed to it.

Some Muslim scholars agree that Mohammed did proclaim some rights for Muslim women. For example he abolished the pre-Islamic Arabian custom of burying alive unwanted female infants. He also decreed that women could own and inherit property, and that women have the right to enjoy sex!

However, he did enshrine women's inequality and inferior status in immutable Quranic law accepted by Muslims as the infallible word of God.

“Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those among you who fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.” Sura 4:34

“...Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise.” Sura 2:228

This is where fundamentalists ruin a religion for everybody, no matter what religion we're talking about. If it is written in the Quran or Bible that men are superior to women, fundamentalists are going to take that for granted.


Read the rest for yourselves.

I can understand why you may be angry, but you cant hide the fact that fundamentalists of any religion will take the word of their particular god to the extreme, thus further tainting that religion.

 

[Kulazzi]

I think the women part has more to do with arab culture, not Islam, hence 14 centuries of failure because Islam was strongly based in arab countries back then.

 

[acmilan]

Please dont take this as offensive in any way. It is meant to be an explanation.

Im not in any way, i understand its one way to explain it.

 

[soha]

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamrights.htm

i dont like this woman. i hope she dies a slow and painful death for acting like she knows wat islam is about. Great thats all we need now... a bunch of shits who think theyve mastered it all.

yeah..this is pretty bad
in all honesty yes it does happen
but its not real ISLAM..
thats the thing about it
its not islam at all
but its perceived to be islamic acts and behaviour and traditions
and women are treated like shit
but thats what people need to understand
this bad stuff is happening and occuring..in islamic countrys
yeah
but if ppl knew and understood islam they would be amazed at just how wonderfully the women are treated and respected
through the teachings of the religon itself
not always by people who call themselves muslim but dont have a clue..or let their cultural practices and traditions come first
it saddens me to hear this stuff
firstly coz its unfair and disgusting that anyone could be mistreated like this
and also because people do it in the name of islam..because islam tells them to..or islam is an evil religon..?
nah..thats so untrue..islam deals with women...better then any otehr religon..in MY personal opinion...

 

[mr EaZy]

Which part of that is incorrect? I know people who have gone to the Middle East, and have seen the treatment of women. We're all aware of the brutal acts committed against women in Muslim countries. The religion itself should not be entirely to blame, just the people who practice it to the extreme...But that's exactly what she's saying.

Really? you've heard first hand accounts from a friend of a friend of yours?
Ive never been to the middle east , but ive heard of these cases in Jordan and others which gained notoriety. Although people do go public saying they've fixed their internal probs, they wont do so when no one knows about it!!

(Notice how the author sinhgles out extreme cases that were singled out in news articles I.E. : and media footage) Many of these cases relate to extremists anyway -back to the old Islam is not a religon of terror and anti-female religon debate!

The law on adultery usually applies only to women. Since men are permitted up to four wives plus concubines they would hardly have the time for “unlawful” sex!

Ahem.......... the law applies to men and women!
and if this lady were to look up any book on statistics; most arab men are married to one woman only! its only when u go to the bush or deserts where u find nomads having 2,3 or 4 wives and thats it. the concept of Concubines in the arab world has long perished although it might still exist in Africa.
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I mean, seriously!!
athiests these days are so desperate to gain legitamacy they have left their old schools of thoughts of rationalism, realism and the distinction of the subject and object laid out by de'cartes and all them fellows.

now they have stooped so low as to pick out the weaknessess displayed by societies with strong (fundamental) links with religons, exaggerating them and making it look like such events represent the norm in islamic society.

Proving that people have followed their religon to extreme ends, examining the flaws of religious impact on modern societies and the discreet negligence of religious benevolence on modern socities does not prove that god does not exist,

this girl's barking up the wrong tree! lolz!

 

[mr EaZy]

Im not in any way, i understand its one way to explain it.

well, im glad...
that paracletos thingy........
you can read more about it in
Sir william Muir's "Life of Mohomet"

he was an orientalist who explained that stuff. like i said, i didnt make this stuff up (u probably already knew that )

 

[mr EaZy]

o and this stuff the athiests are saying about religious folk and women......

let me ask any athiests out there:

Do Athiest women get married ? ( i take it some do and some dont right? )

 

[dark_angel]

Man, this article makes me angry, seriously, if this is NOT islam, then why is it written in the Quran, why is it still happening????

Let me ask you a question, you are in australia right now, this is why you can answer these posts with such vivaciousness and empathy, but if you are in a country such as pakistan and saudi-arabia, will you even have these rights????

And i dont think that islam is perhaps the best religion which "deals with women". Ive heard my father talk and rave on about how he saw so many people executed in front of him, and i think its attrocious. But shit, what can we do? Its not like one of the biggest religions can change its practices instantaneously.

 

[dark_angel]

IF the Quran is Gods words, do you think that these actions against women is what God intended?

i mean think about it, if god exists, he created women for a reason, and this just doesent make any sense, its stupid.

 

[Kulazzi]

Man, this article makes me angry, seriously, if this is NOT islam, then why is it written in the Quran, why is it still happening????

Let me ask you a question, you are in australia right now, this is why you can answer these posts with such vivaciousness and empathy, but if you are in a country such as pakistan and saudi-arabia, perhaps you wont even have these rights????

And i dont think that islam is perhaps the best religion which "deals with women". Ive heard my father talk and rave on about how he saw so many people executed in front of him, and i think its attrocious. But shit, what can we do? Its not like one of the biggest religions can change its practices instantaneously.

Again, it's more to do with the arab culture, not Islam. And pakistan is more modern than you think. Saudi Arabia is a strongly arab based culture. The rights of the women are mostly to do with the culture, not Islam. True, in saudi arabia, you probably won't have these rights, but then again, it's more culture based than religion.